What's wrong with reptoids and greys?

[keftiu]

Reptilian infiltrator aliens are a core pillar of some pretty hateful antisemitic conspiracy theories, and have been for decades. Calling that "stupid complaining" is pretty unflattering - why make this thread if you already know the answer, but just don't like it?

[Mangaholic13]

I'm more curious what your source is for the "Paizo will get rid of Reptoids and Grays"?
I admit, I'm not up to date on everything Paizo says, but I haven't heard of anything like that.
If this is based on how the Aboleths are being quietly removed from Pathfinder... then I don't think it would happen to Reptoids for the same reason. The Aboleths are being removed because they're owned by WotC. I don't think anyone "owns" Reptoids or Grays.

keftiu wrote:

Reptilian infiltrator aliens are a core pillar of some pretty hateful antisemitic conspiracy theories, and have been for decades. Calling that "stupid complaining" is pretty unflattering - why make this thread if you already know the answer, but just don't like it?

To be fair, don't a large number of conspiracy theories have racist origins to them?

I mean, I'm not denying that it's true. Just noting.

Also, if we got rid of Reptoids because of their antisemitic origins... then shouldn't we get rid of the Lovecraftian content too? After all, Lovecraft was INCREDIBLY racist (as an example, Innsmouth was basically his fears at the idea of interracial relationships).

Again, I'm not DENYING the racist/discrimination. I'm just saying, "can you separate the prejudice from the fiction"?

[keftiu]

Mangaholic13 wrote:

Also, if we got rid of Reptoids because of their antisemitic origins... then shouldn't we get rid of the Lovecraftian content too? After all, Lovecraft was INCREDIBLY racist (as an example, Innsmouth was basically his fears at the idea of interracial relationships).

Again, I'm not DENYING the racist/discrimination. I'm just saying, "can you separate the prejudice from the fiction"?

Lovecraft was writing fiction with racist themes 100 years ago; Icke writes books that say "Jews are evil lizard aliens, for real, right now, in our world," and is still alive doing harm today. I think that's a meaningful difference.

Wikipedia wrote:

Critics have accused Icke of being antisemitic and a Holocaust denier, due to, among other statements, his endorsement of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, his book And the Truth Shall Set You Free, which "argues that Holocaust denial should be taught in schools,"[26] and his identification of the Jewish Rothschild family as reptilians

Why would you ever WANT to play with this guy's toys?

[moosher12]

I mean, you already know the answer for the Reptoids. As for the greys, it was probably for a similar reason as the Ikeshki's being retconned into being emotion-based creatures. Both the Greys and the Ikeshki's came off as a bid SA-ey in their 1E renditions. Which just makes things weird at the average table.

And I wouldn't doubt that there's a good chance that having reptoids around as a talking point would have just served to make certain groups of people enabled in trying to reinforce some personal ideologies, as it simply acts as an easy medium for it. Paizo said that tables were reporting awkward experiences with the ikeshki's, and awkward experiences might have also been reported with the greys on a similar path.

Though my real question is where exactly did you hear they are phasing out greys and reptoids? Just curious. I think I may have heard something about reptoids being problematic, I think it was during a livestream while addressing the Ikeshki change. Haven't heard anything about greys though. Are they being removed full-on? Or are they just being delayed? Or are they being rewritten into a new identity?

As for Mangaholic. While Aboleths were removed, they did get replaced by Vidiliths that are practically the same.

[Mangaholic13]

keftiu wrote:

Lovecraft was writing fiction with racist themes 100 years ago; Icke writes books that say "Jews are evil lizard aliens, for real, right now, in our world," and is still alive doing harm today. I think that's a meaningful difference.

Oh... Yeah. I did not think about that. A very good counterpoint.

"keftiu wrote:

Wikipedia wrote:

Critics have accused Icke of being antisemitic and a Holocaust denier, due to, among other statements, his endorsement of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, his book And the Truth Shall Set You Free, which "argues that Holocaust denial should be taught in schools,"[26] and his identification of the Jewish Rothschild family as reptilians

Why would you ever WANT to play with this guy's toys?

Ironic for a dude who advocates fighting facist censors with love...

moosher12 wrote:

I mean, you already know the answer for the Reptoids. As for the greys, it was probably for a similar reason as the Ikeshki's being retconned into being emotion-based creatures. Both the Greys and the Ikeshki's came off as a bid SA-ey in their 1E renditions. Which just makes things weird at the average table.

*Reads about retconned Ikeshti*

Huh. I identify with the Ikeshti and their volatile emotions. I've even had a few Rivener States in the past myself...

Also... SA-ey? I have no idea what that means.

moosher12 wrote:

And I wouldn't doubt that there's a good chance that having reptoids around as a talking point would have just served to make certain groups of people enabled in trying to reinforce some personal ideologies, as it simply acts as an easy medium for it. Paizo said that tables were reporting awkward experiences with the ikeshki's, and awkward experiences might have also been reported with the greys on a similar path.

...While I do agree that I didn't think about that either, Moosher12, that sounds like the same reason to avoid a fandom just because it has some "problematic members"...

moosher12 wrote:

Though my real question is where exactly did you hear they are phasing out greys and reptoids? Just curious. I think I may have heard something about reptoids being problematic, I think it was during a livestream while addressing the Ikeshki change. Haven't heard anything about greys though. Are they being removed full-on? Or are they just being delayed? Or are they being rewritten into a new identity?

As for Mangaholic. While Aboleths were removed, they did get replaced by Alghollthu that are practically the same.

Yeah, the closest I've found is Reddit posts (and even then, most weren't supported).

And yeah, they might just change the name and give them some other kind of theme that isn't "shapeshifting reptilian infiltrators".

Like "little purple people infiltrating using hologram generating robot bodysuits"?

[keftiu]

Mangaholic13 wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I mean, you already know the answer for the Reptoids. As for the greys, it was probably for a similar reason as the Ikeshki's being retconned into being emotion-based creatures. Both the Greys and the Ikeshki's came off as a bid SA-ey in their 1E renditions. Which just makes things weird at the average table.

*Reads about retconned Ikeshti*

Huh. I identify with the Ikeshti and their volatile emotions. I've even had a few Rivener States in the past myself...

Also... SA-ey? I have no idea what that means.

SA is Sexual Assault. Between decades of 'probing' lore for Greys and the violent reproductive cycle of the Ikeshti, I think moosher12's point is a pretty valid one.

[spacecat11]

I think changes to Ikeshti lore for 2e were good. Though I also think having a non-playable SF2 species that has especially weird biology or reproductive habits could be cool for just "whoa, alien life" vibes on a xenowarden wildlife scouting mission or something.

edit for clarity: for "weird" I mean something like "the male is eaten after reproduction" or something along those lines that would be surprising or somehow of interest to xenobiologists.

Or imagine this was a sentient species that was newly developing a synthetic food option to eat to eliminate the need to eat the other parent, ha.

[Mangaholic13]

keftiu wrote:

SA is Sexual Assault. Between decades of 'probing' lore for Greys and the violent reproductive cycle of the Ikeshti, I think moosher12's point is a pretty valid one.

Ah. Well, that is true.

I mean, then, for the Grays, why not retcon out the 'probing' part? Just have it be that "no one knows what they do with those they abduct"?

spacecat11 wrote:

Though I also think having a non-playable SF2 species that has especially weird biology or reproductive habits could be cool for just "whoa, alien life" vibes on a xenowarden wildlife scouting mission or something.

edit for clarity: for "weird" I mean something like "the male is eaten after reproduction" or something along those lines that would be surprising or somehow of interest to xenobiologists.

...You do know that quite a few spiders, insects, gastropods, crustaceans, and some snakes do that already, right? There's even a WORD for it.

spacecat11 wrote:

Or imagine this was a sentient species that was newly developing a synthetic food option to eat to eliminate the need to eat the other parent, ha.

The Ghorans have entered the chat.

[Christopher#2411504]

Eox figurred out how to eat synthic flesh and blood, instead of eating living people.
That should probably be the default for any creepy "biological requirements" that a species might be evolved fo.

The evil species and people are the ones that choose to follow the "old ways", not matter how many they have to kill.

[Finoan]

Mangaholic13 wrote:

keftiu wrote:

SA is Sexual Assault. Between decades of 'probing' lore for Greys and the violent reproductive cycle of the Ikeshti, I think moosher12's point is a pretty valid one.

Ah. Well, that is true.

I mean, then, for the Grays, why not retcon out the 'probing' part? Just have it be that "no one knows what they do with those they abduct"?

Because people will just retcon it right back in (whether deliberately or unconsciously).

In order to get the entire table of people to instinctively give side-eye and 'dude, what are you doing' responses to someone's problematic behavior at the table, the lore and appearance description of the ancestry needs to be changed to be unrecognizable so as to not cause confusion with the existing IRL cryptid's lore and tropes.

[Mangaholic13]

Finoan wrote:

Mangaholic13 wrote:

keftiu wrote:

SA is Sexual Assault. Between decades of 'probing' lore for Greys and the violent reproductive cycle of the Ikeshti, I think moosher12's point is a pretty valid one.

Ah. Well, that is true.

I mean, then, for the Grays, why not retcon out the 'probing' part? Just have it be that "no one knows what they do with those they abduct"?

Because people will just retcon it right back in (whether deliberately or unconsciously).

In order to get the entire table of people to instinctively give side-eye and 'dude, what are you doing' responses to someone's problematic behavior at the table, the lore and appearance description of the ancestry needs to be changed to be unrecognizable so as to not cause confusion with the existing IRL cryptid's lore and tropes.

...I am just terrible at thinking through my responses on this thread.

Thank you for reminding me, Finoan, that problematic players and DMs often will find ways to include problematic things in their games.

...Now I'm imagining reimagining the Grays as some kind of bizarre floating organic polygons with telekinetic limbs.

[moosher12]

Now granted, we don't have to outright get rid of greys I don't think. Problematic players and GMs can make any kind of ancestry problematic. While I won't defend reptoid (and because the Astrazoan kind of fills their space well enough), I think there is room to try to mellow out the greys to acceptable levels. The Ikeshki's, I think, were a good example of how to address the problem. Retcon, change the context of, and/or Deemphasize the bad, then reemphasize the good

Deemphasize the particularly problematic parts such that it's not the mainline experience (and potentially retcon the worse acts). Which is to say, this sort of thing should happen at a rate similar to humans, which is "it may happen, sure, but it's exceptional, and as far as your typical table is concerned, does not have to be addressed or even thought about." Then, give extra emphasis to more commononly acceptable evil they might do, tying into other aspects of them doing research and recon. And lastly, if they are still to be a playable ancestry, emphasize redeeming qualities such that there is a more friendly faction, especially one that might call the normal practices abhorrent or misguided.

For example, instead of running body experiments, they might instead run social experiments to see how they operate in simulations.

For me, the problem with greys isn't greys themselves, it's the way they were depicted in the Alien Archive that reinforced those problematic patterns and made them out to be the general trend of dealing with greys.

[pauljathome]

moosher12 wrote:

Now granted, we don't have to outright get rid of greys I don't think.

I think maybe we do.

To use an analogy, even after these many years (decades?) I STILL basically equate 1/2 lings with hobbits. All the attempts to give them a different culture, a different appearance, etc etc etc haven't completely worked with me. When somebody sits down at a table with a 1/2 ling my mental image is still Sam or Bilbo or Frodo or Merry or Pippin.

And I know that at least some others share this to at least some extent as jokes about hairy feet or rings of invisibility occur.

It can be ABSURDLY hard to change peoples concepts of something (ancestry in this case).

[moosher12]

That's a fair take. To steelman you, even I use the term hobbit instead of halfling for my personal games. Funny enough, it's not specifically out of any love for Tolkien, it's just because I like the idea of halfligns having their own cultural name beyond just halfling, and hobbit just works. I prefer to refer to catfolk as amurrun and prefer to refer to lizardfolk as Iruxi, and ratfolk to ysoki (though thankfully Starfinder does this), and am even disappointed they are called catfolk and lizardfolk in books instead of their cultural name, like the kholo got.

So yes, you do have a very good point, I suppose for some people, any grey, blue, or green headed beady eyed alien will be like that.

And as another support. As a loose example, been watching DanDaDan with my partner. It has aliens, very, very, SA-ey aliens.

[Perpdepog]

I'd also be interested in finding out whether or not reptoids and grays are coming to SF2E. I've been looking forward to both. Grays because, well, I think grays are neat aesthetically, and my first and only SF1E character was a gray, and reptoids because I was looking forward to seeing how Paizo might try divorcing them from those antisemetic routes.

Also I like the apparent cultural trend of reptoids connecting more with their cover identities than their distant leaders, flipping the middle claw to whatever nebulous plans they have, and having wholesome families.

[keftiu]

Arachnidious wrote:

OK, if you say about racism, so what about Azlanti? It is a big oppressive empire of racists? What about jinsuls? If some people have problems with reptoids, I think they want to find a reason to complain. Why did they not complain about witchwirds? I think they are more stereotypical jews in cosmos: merchants with a closed company and secret knowleges.

Depicting racism in fantasy is not unacceptable. People enjoy beating up on fictional empires and fictional racists - look at the success of Star Wars - and also, fantasy/sci-fi racism does not typically target real-world races. The Azlanti hate aliens, not Black people, y'know?

Reptoids are based on explicitly antisemitic conspiracy theories from the real world, with no allegorical layer around it. There are REAL racist loons in the world day who call Jews they don't like "lizard people", which makes it a lot harder to justify trying to rehabilitate the idea of such scaly, sneaky shapeshifters. Witchwyrds might resemble some caricatures, but reptoids are literally taken straight from them.

EDIT: I should also say: if the developers taking complaints like this seriously bothers you, you've picked the wrong game company to buy from. Paizo has been very intentionally, vocally progressive since well before PF2 even released, and have made many previous decisions out of a desire to counteract or avoid old racist tropes.

[moosher12]

Easier to sell a book that can be played in a public space like a game store than a book that can only be played in an 18+ table is the simple answer.

It's one thing for a GM or a player to choose to take a normal villain and up the villainy to something that can only be done in a private game, but another thing if the uncomfortable approach is the mainline experience. As someone who plays with more mature folks exclusively, I endorse the right for GMs to up the ante if the table consents. But it's understandable why it's a risky business pitch when Starfinder and Pathfinder games are increasingly being played by families.

If I was told I was to GM for family, I'd definitely pick something newer. And I certainly would NOT pick Rise of the Runelords.

[Driftbourne]

The problem with Reptoids is that Reptoids have a real-world cult murder problem. This goes beyond antisemitism; people are murdering their own partners, siblings, and children over Lizard People conspiracies and cult leaders. The Lizard People Murders.

[Arachnidious]

Driftbourne wrote:

The problem with Reptoids is that Reptoids have a real-world cult murder problem. This goes beyond antisemitism; people are murdering their own partners, siblings, and children over Lizard People conspiracies and cult leaders. The Lizard People Murders.

Oh... Gods... It is serious. I did not know about it.

[Driftbourne]

Arachnidious wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

The problem with Reptoids is that Reptoids have a real-world cult murder problem. This goes beyond antisemitism; people are murdering their own partners, siblings, and children over Lizard People conspiracies and cult leaders. The Lizard People Murders.

Oh... Gods... It is serious. I did not know about it.

I'm not trying to downplay the antisemitism part of it, but this conspiracy theory has gone to a new level of nuts.

[keftiu]

Arachnidious wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Reptoids are based on explicitly antisemitic conspiracy theories from the real world, with no allegorical layer around it. There are REAL racist loons in the world day who call Jews they don't like "lizard people", which makes it a lot harder to justify trying to rehabilitate the idea of such scaly, sneaky shapeshifters. Witchwyrds might resemble some caricatures, but reptoids are literally taken straight from them.

It is very sad to see it. Maybe my game experience as GM and player was another. I was GM in Against the Aeon Throne two times and no people joke some kind about reptoids this way. But for witchwirds some people use jewish accent but without any harm. Like, I know, some English-spoken table use Russian accent for vesks. My pain is lost of a big part of history of my favorit setting, but not a lost of complicated racism themes or something kind. It is like... a rewriting of real history to hide some bad things.

But if this has become a real problem in other societies, maybe Paizo has no choice.

Please do not do a "Jewish accent" for your merchant aliens. Wtf??

[Arachnidious]

Ok, as I said it was not for harm anybody, especially when that player has relatives from Odessa and mercant-aliens in "Valerian" in official Russian dub were with that accent.

[HolyFlamingo!]

I knew the reptoid removal was coming (Dustin Knight talked about it over Discord quite a few months ago), but the loss of grays is new to me. It really sucks that bad actors at public tables and the increasing violence and mainstream power of conspiracy theorists IRL has made these two iconic pop culture aliens unsalvageable in Paizo's eyes (although TBH reptoids should have probably never been included in the first place, as the antisemitic association was still plenty obvious in 2017). It's probably healthier for the game to not include elements so easily abused or associated with ugly real-life stuff, but as someone who has a soft spot for ufology, it's still a bummer.

At least Pazio was smart enough to never include Pleiadeans/Nordics or the Annunaki. Those guys make the jump from plausibly deniable antisemitism to full-on white supremacy! I was actually kind of shocked to see the munavri included in PF2, as they reference a similar conspiracy BS milieau.

Funny aside about David Icke: As disastrously stupid and wrong as he is, he's since backpedaled on the antisemitism and has been trying to divorce his "theory" from its unfortunate associations, going so far as to take public swings at other prominent conspiracy theorists for their even more blatant antisemitism! I'm not expecting an IRL redemption arc from the dude or anything, but it's interesting (and kind of scary?) to see one of the world's top antisemites basically admit that things have gone too far.

[keftiu]

HolyFlamingo! wrote:

At least Pazio was smart enough to never include Pleiadeans/Nordics or the Annunaki. Those guys make the jump from plausibly deniable antisemitism to full-on white supremacy! I was actually kind of shocked to see the munavri included in PF2, as they reference a similar conspiracy BS milieau.

Conspiracy theory-style Anunnaki were in PF1, with a heavy focus on "creating civilizations and uplifting primitive creatures using their esoteric technology". I don't know why they didn't take the Sumerian mythology route instead of aping Erich von Daniken's racist junk... but then again, PF1 also thought that phrenology was cool.

[Driftbourne]

HolyFlamingo! wrote:

Funny aside about David Icke: As disastrously stupid and wrong as he is, he's since backpedaled on the antisemitism and has been trying to divorce his "theory" from its unfortunate associations, going so far as to take public swings at other prominent conspiracy theorists for their even more blatant antisemitism! I'm not expecting an IRL redemption arc from the dude or anything, but it's interesting (and kind of scary?) to see one of the world's top antisemites basically admit that things have gone too far.

Are you saying David Icke is shape-shifting his mind? I think this is proof of what any sane person has always known: that Jewish people (including some of my relatives) are not shape-shifting lizards; the real shape-shifting lizards are conspiracy theorists. Also, conspiracy theorists are anti-vaccine because vaccines meant for humans don't work on shape-shifting lizards; some people say it makes it impossible for them to maintain their disguise. Anyone not sure if they are a shape-shifting lizard, getting a vaccine to see if you turn into a lizard proves if you are human or not. I think COVID also proved that there is more than one type of shape-shifting conspiracy theorists. The conspiracy theorists promoting taking horse medicine to treat COVID are obviously shape-shifting horses.

There are a couple of reasons I just made up some conspiracy theories about conspiracy theorists. Despite thinking that conspiracy theories are destroying people's ability to think, making up your own lets you see how easy it is to make a conspiracy theory and how they work. This helps to see through real conspiracy theories.

That's why I love conspiracy theories in Starfinder. My character frequently makes up crazy conspiracy theories about who or what caused The Gap or the Drift Crisis. A Cosmic Birth Day was ripe for conspiracy theories.

I really like how the Obama administration dealt with the alien bodyguard conspiracy theory. It seems like houmor might be more effective than logic and facts sometimes. White House Can't Afford Its Shapeshifting Alien Reptile Guards. Playing along with it while mocking how ridiculous it is, doesn't give the conspiracy theory as much fuel for the fire, as outright denying it would.

For me, the root problem is how conspiracy theories work. Once someone believes in one conspiracy theory, they are likely to believe in any conspiracy theory. Trying to make this point to a now ex-friend who was starting to go down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole. I made up a random, crazy conspiracy theory on the spot that no one could prove. They bought it hook, line, and sinker. Then I immediately told them I just made that up, and they wouldn't believe I made it up, That's when I knew they were gone.

[Mangaholic13]

Driftbourne wrote:

**Stuff that the quote system didn't fully quote**

This makes me think of that Netflix show "Inside Job", especially where they REALLY mocked Flat-Earthers by revealing they were the result of a wager regarding getting people to belief "something completely made up that nobody would believe"... In a show that's world is based on the premise, "What if all conspiracy theories were true?"

And yeah, denying conspiracy theories doesn't really help thanks to confirmation bias. In the end, it's not the beliefs themselves that are the main issue, it's the belief itself.

[Christopher#2411504]

HolyFlamingo! wrote:

It really sucks that bad actors at public tables and the increasing violence and mainstream power of conspiracy theorists IRL has made these two iconic pop culture aliens unsalvageable in Paizo's eyes (although TBH reptoids should have probably never been included in the first place, as the antisemitic association was still plenty obvious in 2017).

Tell that to Asia.

They can't freely use their luck Symbol, ever since one german group stole it from 1930's Asia.

[Zoken44]

So the only way I could imagine to do Reptoids and Grays is to completely mock the inherent ideas that underly them while rebuilding them.

Reptoids do use a multitude of biological and technological means to hide among non-reptoid societies... because They are one of the first societies to encounter the ASE. And they chose to hide and assimilate rather than fight. There are enclaves of them living in the Veskarium where they do not hide themselves, because they think reptillians life forms are more trust worthy. They actually take great efforts to avoid positions of power in non-Reptoid societies as those hiding live in constant fear of being revealed, but their tendency to preach tolerance and acceptance has lead them to being promoted and lauded in the ALF, and the Stewards.

Grays, as I suggested elsewhere, are so naturally telepathic, they don't have a spoken or written language. they communicate by sharing emotion on memory. The victims who feel oppressive fear and terror while being abducted by the Grays are experiencing the Gray's feelings about their subjects who, in the Gray's Perspective are mute and appearing brain-dead, but still moving. a bit of an Uncanny Valley perception of the people they study, which the subjects pick up on. They did not realize they were studying and experimenting on sentient organisms. While they have been educated by other telepathic ancestries, and are extremely apologetic, there remains something strange: They fear cows (and all bovine like life forms). Like they flee in terror if possible, but if not possible will kill a cow, and refused to explain it.

[keftiu]

Oh dear: the mods hid OP, which now makes *me* look like the OP.

[Arachnidious]

Zoken44 wrote:

Reptoids do use a multitude of biological and technological means to hide among non-reptoid societies... because They are one of the first societies to encounter the ASE. And they chose to hide and assimilate rather than fight. There are enclaves of them living in the Veskarium where they do not hide themselves, because they think reptillians life forms are more trust worthy. They actually take great efforts to avoid positions of power in non-Reptoid societies as those hiding live in constant fear of being revealed, but their tendency to preach tolerance and acceptance has lead them to being promoted and lauded in the ALF, and the Stewards.

In my community there is new joke: eliminating reptoids from history has been done by reptoids themselves.

[Ectar]

keftiu wrote:

Oh dear: the mods hid OP, which now makes *me* look like the OP.

Yup. Confused the heck out of me for a minute or so there.

Kinda weird, ngl. Almost rather the whole thread were nuked.

[keftiu]

Ectar wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Oh dear: the mods hid OP, which now makes *me* look like the OP.

Yup. Confused the heck out of me for a minute or so there.

Kinda weird, ngl. Almost rather the whole thread were nuked.

Yeah, enough of this thread's been hidden that it's now kind of incoherent.

[Christopher#2411504]

Zoken44 wrote:

Grays, as I suggested elsewhere, are so naturally telepathic, they don't have a spoken or written language. they communicate by sharing emotion on memory. The victims who feel oppressive fear and terror while being abducted by the Grays are experiencing the Gray's feelings about their subjects who, in the Gray's Perspective are mute and appearing brain-dead, but still moving. a bit of an Uncanny Valley perception of the people they study, which the subjects pick up on. They did not realize they were studying and experimenting on sentient organisms. While they have been educated by other telepathic ancestries, and are extremely apologetic, there remains something strange: They fear cows (and all bovine like life forms). Like they flee in terror if possible, but if not possible will kill a cow, and refused to explain it.

So, Greys are mind Goblins with a "Cow Chopper"?

[Christopher#2411504]

keftiu wrote:

HolyFlamingo! wrote:

At least Pazio was smart enough to never include Pleiadeans/Nordics or the Annunaki. Those guys make the jump from plausibly deniable antisemitism to full-on white supremacy! I was actually kind of shocked to see the munavri included in PF2, as they reference a similar conspiracy BS milieau.

Conspiracy theory-style Anunnaki were in PF1, with a heavy focus on "creating civilizations and uplifting primitive creatures using their esoteric technology". I don't know why they didn't take the Sumerian mythology route instead of aping Erich von Daniken's racist junk... but then again, PF1 also thought that phrenology was cool.

They probably go the more historical now.

When they remade DnD creatures in Remaster, they went "back to mythology". Barghest lost their Goblin connection, instead they referenced the original northern English myths.

Rakhshassa are now closer to their Indian sources. Oni closer to the Japanese sources.

It is a pretty good defense. "We are copying the myth, not your work."

[Zoken44]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

So, Greys are mind Goblins with a "Cow Chopper"?

Well, it's Starfinder, so it's Cow Sizzler, but unlike them, it's not like cows are known to attack them or freak out on them. They are just terrified of Cows.

[Mangaholic13]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

Zoken44 wrote:

Grays, as I suggested elsewhere, are so naturally telepathic, they don't have a spoken or written language. they communicate by sharing emotion on memory. The victims who feel oppressive fear and terror while being abducted by the Grays are experiencing the Gray's feelings about their subjects who, in the Gray's Perspective are mute and appearing brain-dead, but still moving. a bit of an Uncanny Valley perception of the people they study, which the subjects pick up on. They did not realize they were studying and experimenting on sentient organisms. While they have been educated by other telepathic ancestries, and are extremely apologetic, there remains something strange: They fear cows (and all bovine like life forms). Like they flee in terror if possible, but if not possible will kill a cow, and refused to explain it.

So, Greys are mind Goblins with a "Cow Chopper"?

I'm not taking the bait!!!

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

keftiu wrote:

HolyFlamingo! wrote:

At least Pazio was smart enough to never include Pleiadeans/Nordics or the Annunaki. Those guys make the jump from plausibly deniable antisemitism to full-on white supremacy! I was actually kind of shocked to see the munavri included in PF2, as they reference a similar conspiracy BS milieau.

Conspiracy theory-style Anunnaki were in PF1, with a heavy focus on "creating civilizations and uplifting primitive creatures using their esoteric technology". I don't know why they didn't take the Sumerian mythology route instead of aping Erich von Daniken's racist junk... but then again, PF1 also thought that phrenology was cool.

They probably go the more historical now.

When they remade DnD creatures in Remaster, they went "back to mythology". Barghest lost their Goblin connection, instead they referenced the original northern English myths.

Rakhshassa are now closer to their Indian sources. Oni closer to the Japanese sources.

It is a pretty good defense. "We are copying the myth, not your work."

I mean, it's the same kind of reasoning that is why Wizards, Bards, Barbarians, Clerics, Sorcerer, Rogue, and Fighter didn't get a name change, right?

Also, it's worked for other games/franchises too.

[Ectar]

So, because I genuinely cannot tell:

Was there something said indicating particular aliens not making the jump to 2E, or was this thread pure speculation?

[Mangaholic13]

Ectar wrote:

So, because I genuinely cannot tell:

Was there something said indicating particular aliens not making the jump to 2E, or was this thread pure speculation?

I, personally, do not know.

Someone on the thread mentioned a live stream that suggested that Reptiods would get removed.
As for the Greys? I think that part may be speculative.

Hey, @Archnidious what's your source for Reptoids and Greys getting removed?

[Driftbourne]

Finoan wrote:

Mangaholic13 wrote:

keftiu wrote:

SA is Sexual Assault. Between decades of 'probing' lore for Greys and the violent reproductive cycle of the Ikeshti, I think moosher12's point is a pretty valid one.

Ah. Well, that is true.

I mean, then, for the Grays, why not retcon out the 'probing' part? Just have it be that "no one knows what they do with those they abduct"?

Because people will just retcon it right back in (whether deliberately or unconsciously).

In order to get the entire table of people to instinctively give side-eye and 'dude, what are you doing' responses to someone's problematic behavior at the table, the lore and appearance description of the ancestry needs to be changed to be unrecognizable so as to not cause confusion with the existing IRL cryptid's lore and tropes.

Just a comment on the word cryptids.

Existing IRL cryptids lore and tropes might be too broad a term to be useful. The Wikipedia page for cryptids only lists things like Bigfoot, Chupacabras, and the Loch Ness monster. The cryptidz.fandom page lists everything from aliens to Dwarves, Goblins, Unicorns, and Vampires. Cryptids also include real extinct species that people claim to have spotted again.

I think it could be fun if Pathfinder and Starfinder had real cryptids, by that I mean Loch Ness monster like creatures thought to exist but are never proven to be real. Game-wise, if it's got a stat block, it's real. So it would have to be a lore-only creature that the PCs never directly encounter. The name of a specific cryptid could come up when gathering information about what dangerous creatures they might encounter in an area, the name could appear on wanted posters, or in rumors. When recalling knowledge about a cryptid, everyone rolls as if they had the Dubious Knowledge feat. False knowledge could look like it was from a stat block.

[Arachnidious]

Driftbourne wrote:

The ending is literally a message of how to reclaim symbolism from space nazi lizard people. I remember watching V when I was in junior high. I know what happened in WWII. I have Jewish friends and relatives. I never heard of David Icke until I started playing Starfinder, and someone complained about reptoids being antisemitic. I don't feel like I should have to change my view because of some obscure conspiracy theorist that most people have never heard of stole an idea and reversed its meaning. I'm on the side of spray-painting a big V on David Icke.

So am I! In my country WWII is a very important historical topic. Any child know all main dates of WWII and, especially, Eastern Front. Denying the Holocaust in my country is not just bad form, it is a sign of terrible stupidity. After all, literally the grandfathers and great-grandfathers of many participated in the liberation of concentration camps. And that's why many gamers in my community don't know any Ickle nonsenses and don't see reptoids like that.

About greys it was from Starfinder Discord, but only with word "probably".

[Justnobodyfqwl]

I think I might have accidentally helped given OP the impression that they weren't coming back, I made a big post about it a few weeks back.

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

I think Greys are in a kinda awkward spot right now for Paizo. They're a very classic alien archetype, exactly as tropey and archetypical as Lashunta or Vesk. But in 1e, they kind of don't have any lore or culture. They're hardcore, explicitly leaning into the adventure they were made for, and their role as "spooky mysterious evil guys". That's already kinda limiting for roleplay in itself, but...

The adventure they're made to tie into...is NEVER going to be revisited by Paizo in ANY way whatsoever at all. A tropey throwback to genre fiction and schlock that just so happens to be entirely built around two simultaneous conspiracy theories that have had VERY RAPID cultural turnovers in perception.

So....what do you do with them now? The obvious answer is just "Idk, make new lore for them unrelated to Threefold Conspiracy, it's not like THEY'RE the part people have a problem with". But I think the fact that doing anything with a Grey would involve just making up a whole new ancestry... probably means they'll be on the backburner for a while.

And it's a shame! There are very few universal pop culture aliens the same way people will immediately understand an Elf or Dwarf, but Greys are one of them. They're honest to God cattle abducting, UFOs and Lasers, disappearing little big headed freaks. Who DOESNT want to play as one?

If I have to guess what'll happen to them, I think the current SF2E team really likes quirky and funny stuff. I think we'll probably see a reimagined Greys that leans into the idea that they're harmless and quirky, in a way that makes them seem off-putting and strange to Pact Worlds aliens. Maybe they have big eyes and abduct people because they're naturally inquisitive and curious, but don't know that studying people without speaking freaks out other aliens.

[moosher12]

So basically making them little Zims? I'm down.

[Christopher#2411504]

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

I think I might have accidentally helped given OP the impression that they weren't coming back, I made a big post about it a few weeks back.

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

I think Greys are in a kinda awkward spot right now for Paizo. They're a very classic alien archetype, exactly as tropey and archetypical as Lashunta or Vesk. But in 1e, they kind of don't have any lore or culture. They're hardcore, explicitly leaning into the adventure they were made for, and their role as "spooky mysterious evil guys". That's already kinda limiting for roleplay in itself, but...

The adventure they're made to tie into...is NEVER going to be revisited by Paizo in ANY way whatsoever at all. A tropey throwback to genre fiction and schlock that just so happens to be entirely built around two simultaneous conspiracy theories that have had VERY RAPID cultural turnovers in perception.

So....what do you do with them now? The obvious answer is just "Idk, make new lore for them unrelated to Threefold Conspiracy, it's not like THEY'RE the part people have a problem with". But I think the fact that doing anything with a Grey would involve just making up a whole new ancestry... probably means they'll be on the backburner for a while.

And it's a shame! There are very few universal pop culture aliens the same way people will immediately understand an Elf or Dwarf, but Greys are one of them. They're honest to God cattle abducting, UFOs and Lasers, disappearing little big headed freaks. Who DOESNT want to play as one?

If I have to guess what'll happen to them, I think the current SF2E team really likes quirky and funny stuff. I think we'll probably see a reimagined Greys that leans into the idea that they're harmless and quirky, in a way that makes them seem off-putting and strange to Pact Worlds aliens. Maybe they have big eyes and abduct people because they're naturally inquisitive and curious, but don't know that studying people without speaking freaks out other aliens.

Some videogames and media might have ideas:

Destroy all Humans
Spacebase Startopia
X-COM
Stargate (the Asgard and Vanir)

There is quite some mythology to draw from now.