I'm a Champion/Kineticist with Reflex Save +5 (Trained) and Perception +6 (Trained). For my level 3 feat, I'm strongly leaning towards Canny Acumen.
Which do I improve by +2 -- Perception, or Reflex? Looking to hear reasons why as well.
I'm aware that +2 Reflex is both
"get hurt by fireball less" AND also "+2 to Reflex DC"
and +2 Perception is both
"see things/threats more often" AND "+2 to initiative" - my character usually uses Perception for initiative.
Thanks!
IMO depends on from the party composition.
Perception has basically 2 big uses:
But both have their own same problem that they will depend on from, how high is your wisdom. So don't expect to be the one that note most hazards nor start the initiative in the top when your wisdom is low.
But there's a situation where that someone in the party need to pick Canny Acumen as perception. That's if no one in the party can't get master proficiency with perpection (no one picked a Gunslinger/Thaumaturge/Bard/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/Barbarian/Investigator/Swa shbuckler). If no one take one of these classes and doesn't take Canny Acumen as perception, the party is unable to detect most hazards after level 10. These hazards usually requires a master in perception in order to notice them.
That said, even in these situations, those that are more recommended taking Canny Acumen as perception are wis focused classes like animists, clerics, and druids.
Canny Acumen for a save typically is interesting to turn any expert save into master (specially for rogues that get “evasion” for fortitude in its expert upgrade) once it is used in many deadly situations in combat or key situations in exploration, including saving from unnoticed traps.
So myself playing as champion would go with Canny Acumen for reflex in order to have better chance to reduce AoE save damage effects. Especially if I take some way to get Reflexive Shield or other way to use the shield against reflexes saves that will make my chance way better and able to reduce the damage with Shield Block.
If the party doesn't have someone master in perception, I would recommend that those who have highest wis to take Canny Acumen for perception, the champion won't be the best option.
Going first helps win fights, and Canny Acumen's Perception boost stacks with other initiative boosters like Incredible Initiative. This will give you a boost until level 11 when you get Expert normally, and then kick in again at 17 when it makes you master.
Meanwhile, with Bulwark and a load of HP, Reflex Saves are typically the least bad ones for you. This will give you a boost until level 9 when you get Expert normally, and then kick in again at 17 when it makes you master.
Pretty easy choice for me. Perception matters more often and Canny Acumen in that is boosting you for more levels.
So you're playing dual class?
I would choose Perception if you plan to go to high level. Champion and Kineticist never get Master Perception.
The kineticist does eventually get Master Reflex saves. You should have started as a dual class kineticist with Expert reflex saves.
How come you don't already have Expert Reflex saves? Are you doing Free archetype or Dual class?
Dual Class kineticist should already have Expert Reflex saves. You should end with Legendary Fort, Master Reflex, and Master Will.
If Free archetype, which class is your main?
If champion is your main, you likely want Canny Acumen for reflex saves as you get +3 from full plate armor and a Master reflex sav will reduce that nasty AOE reflex damage at high level. You already get Master Fort and Will eventually.
I guess I'm not sure why you don't already have Expert Reflex saves. From what I recall of Dual class, you get the best saves of both classes.
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Reflex, and I don't even see the dilemma. In the toughest situations, a poor roll on Perception is nearly always safer than a crit fail on a Reflex throw. Someone beating your Perception DC often has to beat your allies' too. You might want to try developing another ability for initiative, though I wouldn't sweat it if say you prefer going in with your shield up.
Reflex, and I don't even see the dilemma. In the toughest situations, a poor roll on Perception is nearly always safer than a crit fail on a Reflex throw.
How often are people critically failing reflex saves? And don't have a hero point to reroll it?
Is it really all that important in PF2 to even pick math boosting feats like Canny Acumen at all?
Reflex, and I don't even see the dilemma. In the toughest situations, a poor roll on Perception is nearly always safer than a crit fail on a Reflex throw.How often are people critically failing reflex saves? And don't have a hero point to reroll it?
Is it really all that important in PF2 to even pick math boosting feats like Canny Acumen at all?
More often than their life is threatened by a low Perception roll. :-)
And judging from these forums, often enough. And then there's chip damage, which is why many push Reflex (& Evasion) as the most important save (which I disagree with BTW).But speaking of Ref-damage, I hope the OP has Bulwark on their armor.
I'm uninformed on standard Hero Point use, but there are advocates even among guide writers for using them offensively on a miss. (Which I REALLY disagree with.)
The PF2 playtest showed that many people did value the math boosting feats, even at high levels. So much so that the bonuses were integrated into the classes' chassis, i.e. saving throws.
(And TIL that the plural of chassis is chassis.)
I think Canny Acumen is a must-have to get a save to Master...but that's a long way away. I agree there are probably better feats at 3rd level for a PC w/ Lay on Hands. That is unless facing a lot of low-level tramplers, breath weapons, and blaster casters because of the campaign. But at later levels those are everywhere. A
I'm uninformed on standard Hero Point use, but there are advocates even among guide writers for using them offensively on a miss. (Which I REALLY disagree with.)
I'll stand with you in disagreeing with that too.
Hero Points are not well used to go 'hit fishing'. Hero Points don't turn an average result into a heroic one.
Hero Points are best used so that your hero stays being a hero instead of becoming a failure.
To put that in math terms, Hero Points are best used for things that you have a good chance at succeeding at, but because of an exceptionally bad roll the result ends up being disastrous. A Hero Point is good at turning a nat-1 on a save into a success. It isn't good at turning a roll of 9 that misses into a hit.
Reflex, and I don't even see the dilemma. In the toughest situations, a poor roll on Perception is nearly always safer than a crit fail on a Reflex throw. Someone beating your Perception DC often has to beat your allies' too. You might want to try developing another ability for initiative, though I wouldn't sweat it if say you prefer going in with your shield up.
Quite a lot of the time even a Champion is only crit failing a reflex save on a nat 1. In that case, Canny Acumen is doing nothing to prevent a crit fail: you're still crit failing on a nat 1.
The cases where that isn't true because it's a creature above the party's level by enough (like a boss), many of those don't have anything that requires rolling a reflex save at all.
Having it will cause you to normal fail less, but the number of crit fails it will actually change into normal failures over an entire campaign is going to be a very small number.
Meanwhile: Perception is the most commonly rolled thing in the entire game. Getting up to Master lets you see things you normally couldn't find at all, you're rolling it for initiative most of the time, and going earlier on a tank means you get in the enemy's face and start doing your job faster.
Going first is a huge advantage in combat, including in all the ones where you'll never roll a reflex save at all.
Not that boosting reflex is bad: it'll definitely help at times. But in terms of having a character with a bad save, I'd rather it be reflex over the other two every time. If we were talking Fort or Will saves here, I'd probably think differently as failing those can be really, really awful.
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On a melee character, I don't actually value high initiative that much.
I kind of like to see what other characters will do first. It's unlikely anything I would do is going to greatly swing the battle with that first turn, and so waiting a bit to see what my allies and enemies will do allows me react to the situation. It also potentially means using less actions to move into position.
So with perception, I don't value its init contribution that highly. The ability to notice traps and stuff is nice....but hopefully someone else in your party natively has master perception (or better). I wouldn't take Uncanny Acumen for Perception unless no one had native master perception.
So personally I say go for the reflex save.
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Put me in the camp of "there is probably a better general feat to take at 3rd level:" Fleet, Incredible Initiative, or Toughness; Ancestral Paragon, perhaps.
Fleet is one of the few ways to increase a character's Speed. Incredible Initiative has a better value than Canny Acumen (Perception) since it's a circumstance bonus to (all) initiative rolls instead of an increase to Expert proficiency in Perception (which a champion gets at 11th level). Toughness increases hit points. Ancestral Paragon may make sense if there is a another 1st level ancestry feat that would be good for the character concept (such as Natural Ambition or Unconventional Weaponry for a human).
The Canny Acumen benefit of increasing Perception or a save to Master only really matters at high level play, IMO. It only kicks in if the character is 17th+ level.
Hmmm... Depends a lot on things we don't know about your character
-What's your character's speed? Being below 25 can be awkward against others humanoids.
-Depending on your ancestry, Natural Ambition can be great.
-What sort of Kineticist Impulses do you use? If you're planning to use control or Blasting impulses, going first is more important. It also depends on how often your GM lets you start combat with your reaction. If those are major concerns, I do think Canny Accumen (Perception) is a good pick, especially if down time will be available to retrain at level 11
- Canny Accumen (Reflex) isn't bad by any means, but failed reflex saves aren't as scary as failed will and fortitude. Maybe if your GM is really big on dragons and fireballs.
So you're playing dual class?
I would choose Perception if you plan to go to high level. Champion and Kineticist never get Master Perception.
The kineticist does eventually get Master Reflex saves. You should have started as a dual class kineticist with Expert reflex saves.
How come you don't already have Expert Reflex saves? Are you doing Free archetype or Dual class?
Dual Class kineticist should already have Expert Reflex saves. You should end with Legendary Fort, Master Reflex, and Master Will.
If Free archetype, which class is your main?
If champion is your main, you likely want Canny Acumen for reflex saves as you get +3 from full plate armor and a Master reflex sav will reduce that nasty AOE reflex damage at high level. You already get Master Fort and Will eventually.
I guess I'm not sure why you don't already have Expert Reflex saves. From what I recall of Dual class, you get the best saves of both classes.
It's free archetype yes, not dual class -- sorry if those are different things.
My primary class is Champion; Kineticist is the free archetype.
So Reflex is my "bad" save, but I'm also only "trained" in Perception for now.
Champ AND Kineticist never getting master perception does seem bad.
Put me in the camp of "there is probably a better general feat to take at 3rd level:" Fleet, Incredible Initiative, or Toughness; Ancestral Paragon, perhaps.
Fleet is one of the few ways to increase a character's Speed. Incredible Initiative has a better value than Canny Acumen (Perception) since it's a circumstance bonus to (all) initiative rolls instead of an increase to Expert proficiency in Perception (which a champion gets at 11th level). Toughness increases hit points. Ancestral Paragon may make sense if there is a another 1st level ancestry feat that would be good for the character concept (such as Natural Ambition or Unconventional Weaponry for a human).
The Canny Acumen benefit of increasing Perception or a save to Master only really matters at high level play, IMO. It only kicks in if the character is 17th+ level.
I agree with you, but I already took Fleet. And already took Natural Ambition and I am very much considering Natural Skill at 3rd if I didn't take Canny Acumen.
Toughness/Incredible Initiative are tempting. Thanks for that.
(Even though it makes my choice a little harder)
IMO depends on from the party composition.
Perception has basically 2 big uses:
Notice hidden characters and things.
Improve your initiative used for most encounters. But both have their own same problem that they will depend on from, how high is your wisdom. So don't expect to be the one that note most hazards nor start the initiative in the top when your wisdom is low.
But there's a situation where that someone in the party need to pick Canny Acumen as perception. That's if no one in the party can't get master proficiency with perpection (no one picked a Gunslinger/Thaumaturge/Bard/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/Barbarian/Investigator/Swa shbuckler). If no one take one of these classes and doesn't take Canny Acumen as perception, the party is unable to detect most hazards after level 10. These hazards usually requires a master in perception in order to notice them.
We have a bard and a fighter (and I think a rogue) right now -- so we will avoid the LACK of master proficiency in Perception, but thanks for pointing that out. I wouldn't have considered that at all.
Going first helps win fights, and Canny Acumen's Perception boost stacks with other initiative boosters like Incredible Initiative. This will give you a boost until level 11 when you get Expert normally, and then kick in again at 17 when it makes you master.
(snip)
Pretty easy choice for me. Perception matters more often and Canny Acumen in that is boosting you for more levels.
You are not the first person in this thread to say this, and I am liking the idea of pouring multiple bonuses onto initiative rolls to go first.
I have to have a turn before the bad guys in order to have a reaction.
Perception.
Get that excellent Champion Reaction up sooner.
=)
Nice succinct logical response. Thank you.
Meanwhile: Perception is the most commonly rolled thing in the entire game. Getting up to Master lets you see things you normally couldn't find at all, you're rolling it for initiative most of the time, and going earlier on a tank means you get in the enemy's face and start doing your job faster.
Going first is a huge advantage in combat, including in all the ones where you'll never roll a reflex save at all.
Not that boosting reflex is bad: it'll definitely help at times. But in terms of having a character with a bad save, I'd rather it be reflex over the other two every time. If we were talking Fort or Will saves here, I'd probably think differently as failing those can be really, really awful.
And my Fort and Will saves are healthy. It's ONLY Reflex that's lagging behind. A lot of people have brought up very cogent points about "you need to go first" -- i.e. paladin's reaction requires paladin to have had a turn.
Hmmm... Depends a lot on things we don't know about your character
-What's your character's speed? Being below 25 can be awkward against others humanoids.
-Depending on your ancestry, Natural Ambition can be great.
-What sort of Kineticist Impulses do you use? If you're planning to use control or Blasting impulses, going first is more important. It also depends on how often your GM lets you start combat with your reaction. If those are major concerns, I do think Canny Accumen (Perception) is a good pick, especially if down time will be available to retrain at level 11
- Canny Accumen (Reflex) isn't bad by any means, but failed reflex saves aren't as scary as failed will and fortitude. Maybe if your GM is really big on dragons and fireballs.
Speed 30, will be 35 next level.
Already took Nat'l Ambition; almost always take it at level 1. Agree that it's GREAT.
Leaning towards blasting impulses yes, or at least using it as my primary ranged attack.
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On a melee character, I don't actually value high initiative that much.
I kind of like to see what other characters will do first. It's unlikely anything I would do is going to greatly swing the battle with that first turn, and so waiting a bit to see what my allies and enemies will do allows me react to the situation. It also potentially means using less actions to move into position.
So with perception, I don't value its init contribution that highly. The ability to notice traps and stuff is nice....but hopefully someone else in your party natively has master perception (or better). I wouldn't take Uncanny Acumen for Perception unless no one had native master perception.
So personally I say go for the reflex save.
It's something I've noticed before. But some people tend to overvalue initiative in PF2e.
As Claxon rightly pointed out, if you're a melee player, you'll likely use Delay to fight alongside your allies in teamwork or simply to wait for your enemies to approach and save yourself an action used for movement. This diminishes the tactical importance of investing in a high initiative.
Not that having a high initiative is a good thing; after all, reactions, for example, only start working when your first turn begins, or a high initiative can be useful for a caster to cast a burst effect on enemies while they remain together. But due to PF2e's diverse tactics and fair balance, it's not as relevant as it is in systems where players string together broken and devastating combos, killing or incapacitating enemies before they can even act.
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PF2 Player Core: "The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens."
So ask your GM. I think most GMs would let you use a Reaction before your first turn, especially if you Defend during Exploration. Some GMs might be thinking of PF1 and may require persuading, but "no" is not the default. Nor is "yes" for that matter, rather GM's adjudication of the situation is the default, which IMO means you do have a Reaction and the question is more whether you're alert enough to use it/notice the trigger.
But yeah, initiative is nice, but Delay is too often the better tactic for a melee character, at least vs. melee enemies. Give your casters some space to throw AoE spells, let the baddies spend actions getting to you so you get more swings, easier flanking, and better support. And as a Champion (and maybe as a Kineticist too), you should want to keep your allies in your Aura anyway rather than run forward.
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So you're playing dual class?
I would choose Perception if you plan to go to high level. Champion and Kineticist never get Master Perception.
The kineticist does eventually get Master Reflex saves. You should have started as a dual class kineticist with Expert reflex saves.
How come you don't already have Expert Reflex saves? Are you doing Free archetype or Dual class?
Dual Class kineticist should already have Expert Reflex saves. You should end with Legendary Fort, Master Reflex, and Master Will.
If Free archetype, which class is your main?
If champion is your main, you likely want Canny Acumen for reflex saves as you get +3 from full plate armor and a Master reflex sav will reduce that nasty AOE reflex damage at high level. You already get Master Fort and Will eventually.
I guess I'm not sure why you don't already have Expert Reflex saves. From what I recall of Dual class, you get the best saves of both classes.
It's free archetype yes, not dual class -- sorry if those are different things.
My primary class is Champion; Kineticist is the free archetype.
So Reflex is my "bad" save, but I'm also only "trained" in Perception for now.
Champ AND Kineticist never getting master perception does seem bad.
If Free archetype, then I would go Reflex saves. That will give you Master on all your saves at level 17.
Perception should be covered by another party member. A champion can wait to see how the board sets up for where best to place themselves. They almost always want to be close to everyone else to use their reaction.
So go Reflex saves as Reflex damage spells get real nasty at high level.
Put me in the camp of "there is probably a better general feat to take at 3rd level:" Fleet, Incredible Initiative, or Toughness; Ancestral Paragon, perhaps.
Fleet is one of the few ways to increase a character's Speed. Incredible Initiative has a better value than Canny Acumen (Perception) since it's a circumstance bonus to (all) initiative rolls instead of an increase to Expert proficiency in Perception (which a champion gets at 11th level). Toughness increases hit points. Ancestral Paragon may make sense if there is a another 1st level ancestry feat that would be good for the character concept (such as Natural Ambition or Unconventional Weaponry for a human).
The Canny Acumen benefit of increasing Perception or a save to Master only really matters at high level play, IMO. It only kicks in if the character is 17th+ level.
Absolutely great points.
I personally take fleet as my 3rd level general feat on basically every character.
And if you're interested in the init bonus, Incredible Init is a better way to do that IMO.
I do usually take Canny Accumen...a bit closer to when it scales up to Master (either 15th or 19th level). While it's unlikely to do anything at 15th level, I often don't have anything better I want to take. And waiting until 19th level kind of seem like a waste altogether.
Although, I suppose if you have downtime in your campaign you could take whatever you like at 15th and then retrain the feat at 17th level.
To the OP, you're a champion with kineticist dedication?
I'm assuming you're strength based with low dex. Which means your kineticist abilities are for....I'm not sure what exactly.
You still need to wield a weapon, as your reaction (assuming you took Justice cause) won't allow you to use your elemental blast. I suppose you could use kineticist to throw some ranged attacks on your turn, although I presume your poor dex isn't going to help you do that well.
Which leaves some AOE impulses or other general impulses.
Honestly I'm having a hard time finding the synergy, but you do you.
Anyways, point being I'm not seeing much that would benefit from you going earlier in combat aside from having a turn to allow you to use your reaction.
But it's a double edge sword in the sense that if you go first, and you don't move to stay with your allies to use your reaction that you gained, they may move away. And even if you don't, what do you do with your turn where you're staying in place to protect your allies, but your most effective abilities are at melee range?
Champions with metal or wood kineticist archetype synergizes due to shields.
Basically, due to how Champion's Blessed Shield works, this combination basically allows creating and recreating shields with just one action with Hardwood Armor or Metal Carapace and applying the effects of the Reinforcing Rune of your level to these shields due to Blessed Shield.
This way you basically have a Sturdy Shield that can be recreated with just a single action. But also have a -1 AC drawback too because the RAW of Hardwood Armor or Metal Carapace makes you substitute your armor bonuses to the impulse armor bonus so you basically are unable to get +6 AC of the heavy armors because the impulse substitutes it (and nothing in these impulse description says that you can create the shield without the armor). Yet this disadvantage is easily compensated due the fact that you can block any damage without worry of broke your shield (once that you can make another in your next turn).
Another use that people made with Champion + Wood Kineticist combination is to combine Timber Sentinel with default champion's high AC and DR.
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So there is some synergy, but not offensively based.
And so my decision would remain the same, the increased perception (and init) from Canny Acumen remains not as useful (IMO) as the increased reflex save.
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When I have a character with one save markedly lower than the other two, I will use Canny Acumen to shore it up. Regardless of which save is actually lagging; it's lagging so give it a boost.
If the saves are all more or less even, I don't bother.
I have never used Canny Acumen to boost Perception. So, in answer to the OP, use it to boost your Reflex saves.
Not that having a high initiative is a good thing; after all, reactions, for example, only start working when your first turn begins,
That's not true. The rules say the Gm determines if you get your reaction before your first turn begins, and most interpret that as "you can react as long as you would have seen the trigger coming." Which means unless the enemy is unobserved you're probably fine.
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That's not true. The rules say the Gm determines if you get your reaction before your first turn begins, and most interpret that as "you can react as long as you would have seen the trigger coming." Which means unless the enemy is unobserved you're probably fine.
Not that having a high initiative is a good thing; after all, reactions, for example, only start working when your first turn begins,
You're quotes are a bit jacked up, I didn't say that but the way you edited the quote accidentally makes it look that way.
Anyways, while it's true the GM determines when you get your reaction, GMs generally won't argue that you don't have it after your first turn (unless you have some status that removes your ability to use reactions).
So YuriP's point is useful in pointing out that "hey, having a higher init (even if you're going to delay) is still useful for making sure you have a reaction available, which is of greater importance on a champion character"; some GMs may rule prior to your first turn you don't have a reaction available. It's not an unreasonable ruling.
Saying you automatically don't have a Reaction available before your first turn is an unreasonable ruling and sounds like PF1 detritus to me. The PF2 rules explicitly show that a PC might be able to use such a Reaction, subject to GM adjudication. (So also not automatically yes.) One doesn't have to wait for one's first turn to regain their Reaction, it's more a matter if the PC is ready to react. I'd say most likely due to awareness.
If my PC can see an enemy at the start of battle and a GM didn't let me React, that'd raise alarm bells. And if I were also Defending for my Exploration activity, I'd have to reconsider, balance vs. that GM's or table's strengths (after an attempt at persuasion of course).
Which means one should measure this advice re: initiative vs. one's own GM's tendencies. Yet even w/ an absolute never I wouldn't invest in initiative over a saving throw. I'd try to find a different roll for initiative (not that it's easy for a Str Champion).
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I disagree Castilliano and think you're viewpoint sets an expectation for players that they are entitled to a reaction before their first turn, except the GM may sometimes take it away for reason X, Y, Z.
I don't like that way of thinking.
The rules say:
The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens
The way I read this is: Can you react before your first turn? No, but sometimes the GM will allow it in certain situations.
I think this is a healthier way of reading, because it doesn't set the expectation of having the reaction, and says you might get one subject to the GM's view of the situation.
In one view, the GM is taking it away, in another the GM is giving it out.
I personally default to: You don't have reactions before your first turn (but there are many potential exceptions). For example, if you're using the Defend activity while exploring I'm likely going to allow defense based reactions, such as shield block. I'm less inclined to allow you to use Reactive Strike. For me it is very much a case by case basis and wont try go through all possible examples, but it boils down to what was your character doing and would they be "reasonably prepared" to do that thing based on what they had been doing.
But also keep in mind, I run this equally for NPCs as well as PCs. NPC are generally not going to have their reactions before their first turns either. Which means going first does have a real tangible benefit in that regard. Being able to get into position without the enemy raising their shield or pull out a reactive strike on that first turn can be big.
But I do think that PCs & NPCs have a Reaction available. This is demonstrated by the pre-combat Reaction abilities that exist yet don't have to supply a Reaction to use. It's there. I also think a GM does need a reason to deny early Reactions. I also think those reasons occur frequently enough players shouldn't bank on them or feel entitled to them, which I agree would be negative. Stealth happens.
I also understand the psychological impact of cost vs. penalty and how the route to the same net result alters how we feel about that exact same result. But I also think being denied a PC's invested ability has its own ramifications.
Obviously their are some reaction abilities that are absolutely intended to function on the first round of combat, even if you haven't had a turn.
Those would be exceptions. But that is my point, they are exceptions. And there are a great many exceptions.
But I stand by the idea that we ought to think of reactions as not available prior to your first turn, without some sort of (commonly occurring) exception.
In general, I'm not going to allow you to use Reactive Strike before your first turn.
But, if the party is waiting for the enemy to come to them, I would.
I guess the main thing I argue with your viewpoint is the that the GM needs to come up with a reason to deny the reaction. I don't like that one bit.
I view it as the players needs to come up with a convincing reason why their reaction should work before their turn. And I also happen to think the wording of reaction rules agrees more with my viewpoint (although I feel like they tried to write it in a very neutral way, which makes the discussion more difficult).
Obviously their are some reaction abilities that are absolutely intended to function on the first round of combat, even if you haven't had a turn.
Those would be exceptions. But that is my point, they are exceptions. And there are a great many exceptions.
I mean them being exceptions doesn't remove the problem of the abilities not working properly if you regularly deny characters their reaction before their first turn, when there's often very little to suggest that the abilities are not meant to be used regularly.
If PCs came in with no Reaction to use, those abilities would need to provide that Reaction so they could function. There's no language that suggests that's happening. Those Reaction abilities spend a Reaction that's available already.
And asserting those abilities are exceptions is an opinion (unless of course you have a citation). In my interpretation they are normal.
While those sound kinda lawyer-y to me, one can simply refer to the parameters of Reactive Strike (et al) and see there's no requirement that you have had a first turn. So if an enemy triggers it...why didn't it trigger? I'd say a GM definitely needs a reason for that (even if those reasons are commonplace). This isn't PF1 where you're flat-footed/off-guard and lack Reactions until your turn. "Because you haven't gone yet" seems like the weakest of reasons (especially in light of real world reflexes).
I do wish Paizo had included ideas of what factors to consider when saying it's a matter for GMs to consider. :-P But obviously "not having gone yet" wouldn't be one when that's the baseline being discussed.
I'm just going to say, I'm not really open to changing my opinion on the topic of when reactions are gained, how I prefer people to view the expectation of receiving reactions, etc. And having said that I'm going to stop further discussion on the topic, as we've already been too distracting from the original purpose of this thread.
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If no one take one of these classes and doesn't take Canny Acumen as perception, the party is unable to detect most hazards after level 10. These hazards usually requires a master in perception in order to notice them.
Canny Acumen won't help with that... at least, it won't help until Level 17. Canny Acumen bumps to Expert on taking it, and then Master at L17.
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I generally let players use reactions before their first turn. I imagine it depends on how you view the PCs and I view them as seasoned combat veterans always ready for a fight.
I may deny a reaction if they were in some setting that lulled them into a false sense of security like a party in a city or something. But most of the time I default to the PCs have seen a lot of hellish stuff and are always ready to fight.
To put it in somewhat realistic terms, the PCs fight or flight reaction is always set to fight. Their first reaction if surprised is to kill whatever surprised them.
The rules don't specify like PF1. They leave it up to the GM, so whatever they decide is the rule for first turn reactions.
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I deny reactions when it makes no sense for PCs to have them.
Any situation where they used an exploration activity like scout or defend they may still get one even in situations where they were surprised since those actions represent being prepared for a fight.
Its situational so expect it to be a possibility you don't get one no matter how often you do get one.
Canny Acumen for Perception can be quite good on a Wisdom class, as you end up getting a Perception modifier comparable to non-Wis classes with master and eventually legendary Perception. On a Champion / Kineticist it might still be desirable, though better Reflex saves will make your character even more durable than they already are. I do agree with several other comments made here though that there are likely more exciting uses for a general feat at that level, and Fleet in my experience opens up a lot of options.
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I deny reactions when it makes no sense for PCs to have them.
Any situation where they used an exploration activity like scout or defend they may still get one even in situations where they were surprised since those actions represent being prepared for a fight.
Its situational so expect it to be a possibility you don't get one no matter how often you do get one.
Yeah, this. The only time I don't let PCs have them on the first round is if they're really caught off guard. Like someone in the middle of a long term activity like treat wounds/crafting when a fight breaks out? They're not prepared. Asleep? Not prepared. Ambushed and you're not taking a "ready for combat" exploration activity? Not prepared.
In any other case, I assume professional monster hunters are ready to react quickly. That means that the vast majority of the time, PCs have reactions at the start of the fight.
NPCs follow the same treatment. In my experience, players tend to find this pretty fair, so it works for us. :)
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The rules say:
The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happensThe way I read this is: Can you react before your first turn? No, but sometimes the GM will allow it in certain situations.
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I also have this view that's no by default unless there's a situation that allows to a player to get its reaction when the encounter starts.
As everyone said it's GM fiat.
Myself use this in a way that unless you are ready to fight using some combat oriented exploration activity (like Defend), or you're clearing noticing that the thing is going under a combat situation (like encountering an enemy that it's clearly hostile, but it's not initiating the combat immediately, usually starting with some talk or intimidation). You don't get your reaction until it's the beginning of your turn (unless you are a guardian that have an ability that allows to always get your reactions prepared).
This not only allows guardian's ability to shine but also give some sense to surprise and unexpected encounters once that the game basically doesn't have clear RAW surprise attack rule (many APs gives a -4 penalties to initiative, but this isn't RAW).
So I rule situations like these:
And so on.
So I rule to a point that it's not hard for players to begins an encounter with their reaction, but I require that they are doing something to justify this, not the opposite.
If no one take one of these classes and doesn't take Canny Acumen as perception, the party is unable to detect most hazards after level 10. These hazards usually requires a master in perception in order to notice them.Canny Acumen won't help with that... at least, it won't help until Level 17. Canny Acumen bumps to Expert on taking it, and then Master at L17.
Yes you got a point. This still give a very wide level gap where no player can deal with hazards that's requires master proficiency.