The magus is a really fun class. If they can build off that chassis or more magus-like classes, that would be cool. It has cool imagery and is highly effective. I like the designer kept the magus focused and simple on doing the thing people want to do with the magus well.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The magus would be cooler if it had more ways to recharge its Spellstrike.
I fail to understand why Hybrid Studies don't come with a unique way to recharge Spellstrike, similar to a Gunslinger's Reload.
That's on top of obtaining feats that could recharge Spellstrike, like when activating Arcane Cascade, scoring a Critical Hit and such.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The magus would be cooler if it had more ways to recharge its Spellstrike.
I fail to understand why Hybrid Studies don't come with a unique way to recharge Spellstrike, similar to a Gunslinger's Reload.
That's on top of obtaining feats that could recharge Spellstrike, like when activating Arcane Cascade, scoring a Critical Hit and such.
They do each get a conflux focus spell. They are of varying quality.
Magus is the best GISH in my experience.
I have not tried the animist yet. I can't see them matching magus damage from round to round, but they have caster burst damage which can match the magus overall.
They do each get a conflux focus spell. They are of varying quality.The magus would be cooler if it had more ways to recharge its Spellstrike.
I fail to understand why Hybrid Studies don't come with a unique way to recharge Spellstrike, similar to a Gunslinger's Reload.
That's on top of obtaining feats that could recharge Spellstrike, like when activating Arcane Cascade, scoring a Critical Hit and such.
But those are Focus Spells, which aren't unlimited per encounter.
As well as feats that recharge spellstrike while, say, recalling knowledge (they won't make a feat that recharges spellstrike on crit, that's too feast-or-famine for an already feast-or-famine class)
Then go for Study-exclusive ways to recharge Spellstrike...
or rolling a Natural 20...
They do each get a conflux focus spell. They are of varying quality.The magus would be cooler if it had more ways to recharge its Spellstrike.
I fail to understand why Hybrid Studies don't come with a unique way to recharge Spellstrike, similar to a Gunslinger's Reload.
That's on top of obtaining feats that could recharge Spellstrike, like when activating Arcane Cascade, scoring a Critical Hit and such.
But those are Focus Spells, which aren't unlimited per encounter.
As well as feats that recharge spellstrike while, say, recalling knowledge (they won't make a feat that recharges spellstrike on crit, that's too feast-or-famine for an already feast-or-famine class)Then go for Study-exclusive ways to recharge Spellstrike...
or rolling a Natural 20...
Remember, one can always spend a single action to recharge spellstrike...so it's not like you'll ever run out of the ability to spellstrike altogether. But your combat efficiency may suffer as you start sinking actions into recharging spellstrike. I think this is a big part of why starlit span is popular, because unlike a melee magus you can spend an action every turn on only recharging and because you don't need to move its not as big a deal. Spellstrike (with cantrip), recharge. Repeat. Against a boss, spell strike with an actual spell slot. The conflux focus spells are meant to increase your action efficiency, although their usefulness varies wildly.
The first thought I have is that something as simple as being able to stride (maybe at half speed) and recharge spellstrike would be amazing. Perhaps too good (even at half speed).
But like, there's a reason Laughing Shadow magus is popular/good. Not only do you get bonus damage (when using one handed weapons), but the focus spell gets you to your target. So you can move, spell strike, next turn, Dimensional Assault to target (if needed), and spell strike.
I think magus could probably benefit from some sort of option to enhance the single action recharge mechanic by letting you couple it with something. Even if its somewhat limited, again like a half speed stride. Mostly because the idea of spending a single action to recharge spellstrike in the middle of combat just comes off as very unappealing.
I think magus could probably benefit from some sort of option to enhance the single action recharge mechanic by letting you couple it with something. Even if its somewhat limited, again like a half speed stride. Mostly because the idea of spending a single action to recharge spellstrike in the middle of combat just comes off as very unappealing.
a.k.a. "study-exclusive ways"
|
Laughing Shadow: If you use an action to successfully feint, or if an activity includes you successfully feinting, recharge your spell strike as a free action.
Inexorable Iron: Any time you successfully move an enemy against their will (Shove, knock prone, reposition) recharge your spell strike as a free action.
Sparkling Targe: If you successfully reduce an enemy's damage to 0 before it applies to your hit points, or if the circumstance bonus from your shield would turn a hit into a miss, you may recharge your spell strike as a free action.
Would Ideas like this work?
Laughing Shadow: If you use an action to successfully feint, or if an activity includes you successfully feinting, recharge your spell strike as a free action.
Inexorable Iron: Any time you successfully move an enemy against their will (Shove, knock prone, reposition) recharge your spell strike as a free action.
Sparkling Targe: If you successfully reduce an enemy's damage to 0 before it applies to your hit points, or if the circumstance bonus from your shield would turn a hit into a miss, you may recharge your spell strike as a free action.
Would Ideas like this work?
Absolutely, although to JiCi's point, I think we also need "study-exclusive ways", but both would be best. Some very generic abilities to recharge and do something. Heck, maybe it's a step or stride up to 10ft and recharge spellstrike as a generic. And maybe the studies all get additional options for recharging.
That said, I would change one thing about your proposed idea. I think your suggestions might be a little too good, in how they might interact with too many things.
I would make each thing its own activity, that allows you to do the thing and recharge.
So Laughing Shadow could have "Laughing Feint" - a 1 action activity that allows you to feint and then recharge.
And Inexorable Iron could have "Iron Motion" - a 1 action activity that allows you to shove, reposition, or trip and recharge.
Making those things an ability that happens anytime the character does that action, including in other subordinate activities is probably too strong.
If I may add, those can be 1) feats and 2) advanced ones as well.
We don't need to give them to the Magus right away, but to offer them a choice would be welcomed.
Let us look at Pf 1e for answers. There were about 40 classes, depending on how you count alternative classes or the Omdura. Each of those a variety of archetypes, some even getting close to 50. So let's be conservative and assume every class had about 20 archetypes.
That's about 800 permutations of classes that existed in PF 1e. So to answer your question, yes. We will be getting more classes. Considering that instead of giving a existing class an archetype that completely alters how it plays, Paizo makes a new class to fullfill that radically different class idea, we will probably see more classes than Pf 1e.
If I may add, those can be 1) feats and 2) advanced ones as well.
We don't need to give them to the Magus right away, but to offer them a choice would be welcomed.
I agree. I would make them higher level feats. At low levels you have your conflux spell, the single action recharge, and a generic ability (I'm going to keep saying a 10ft stride).
Then at some higher level, you get a study specific way to do it. And probably an upgrade to the generic 10ft stride, to make it your movement speed.
If I may add, those can be 1) feats and 2) advanced ones as well.
We don't need to give them to the Magus right away, but to offer them a choice would be welcomed.
I agree. I would make them higher level feats. At low levels you have your conflux spell, the single action recharge, and a generic ability (I'm going to keep saying a 10ft stride).
Then at some higher level, you get a study specific way to do it. And probably an upgrade to the generic 10ft stride, to make it your movement speed.
Exactly
The biggest problem I have with the Magus is that I must spend either one action to recharge, which is basically "standing still", OR spend 2 actions to cast a Conflux spell, which may or may not be useful, depending on the situation.
A Magus, as they level up, should logically be able to recharge Spellstrike by Striding, Hiding, Leaping, Reloading, Taking Aim and so much more. I mentioned Critical Striking, but like I said, if I roll a Natural 20 on a normal Strike or Casting (not with an actual Spellstrike), that should be "my reward". Considering that Critical Hits are like 10 times more frequent in P2E, a Natural 20 would be the best alternative. At best, slap such a feat with the Luck trait :p
I keep hearing that crossbow- and firearm-using Magi are almost non-existent, because reloading eats up so many actions. Recharging Spellstrike and Reloading your weapon would be a sweeter deal, provided it's an advanced feat that demonstrates how muscle memory can benefit a Magus.
I know you can use a Repeating weapon, but still, bows don't need to reload... so something equivalent is needed.
Yeah, for sure a feat to reload your weapon and recharge would be amazing to enable firearm or crossbow magus.
Because you're right, it's not viable to need to spend actions reload and recharging.
Just use a bow, but that limits the fantasy in unnecessary ways.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Inexorable Magus: every thread will, ultimately, become a discussion about Magus.
Well, I can rant on how the Kineticist should get both Aether and Void elements, as well as abilities to treat Blasts as either Strikes or Spells, but... everyone knows that :p
In short, my personal opinion is "no more NEW class, more existing class OPTIONS". Same with ancestries.
There's a good frame now, so Paizo should focus on reinforcing it :)
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The hype generated by new classes and their playtest just cannot be equaled by new things for existing classes.
I think Paizo will keep with their current MO of 2 new classes and a few things for existing classes here and there.
Until we reach PF3 playtest in a few years, that is.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The hype generated by new classes and their playtest just cannot be equaled by new things for existing classes.
I think Paizo will keep with their current MO of 2 new classes and a few things for existing classes here and there.
Until we reach PF3 playtest in a few years, that is.
A well done wizard would excite and unite the community.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
A well done wizard would excite and unite the community.The hype generated by new classes and their playtest just cannot be equaled by new things for existing classes.
I think Paizo will keep with their current MO of 2 new classes and a few things for existing classes here and there.
Until we reach PF3 playtest in a few years, that is.
I mean, eh, maybe? I question how much the people who don't post on here or, say, the reddit community actually have opinions about the wizard, or even care.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A well done wizard would excite and unite the community.The hype generated by new classes and their playtest just cannot be equaled by new things for existing classes.
I think Paizo will keep with their current MO of 2 new classes and a few things for existing classes here and there.
Until we reach PF3 playtest in a few years, that is.
I saw War Mage getting hype.
Maybe one or two other Wizard archetypes and then PF3 Wizard.
I do not think re-redoing the PF2 Wizard would generate that much interest within the customers base.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A well done wizard would excite and unite the community.The hype generated by new classes and their playtest just cannot be equaled by new things for existing classes.
I think Paizo will keep with their current MO of 2 new classes and a few things for existing classes here and there.
Until we reach PF3 playtest in a few years, that is.
I saw War Mage getting hype.
Maybe one or two other Wizard archetypes and then PF3 Wizard.
I do not think re-redoing the PF2 Wizard would generate that much interest within the customers base.
Nah, you're wrong.
People get very excited about reworks and remasters. We saw the massive buzz with the class remasters, people clamour for new content all the time. Another section of the community would be overjoyed if the Wizard threads would stop.
Re-remastering the Wizard would be a win all round.
You want to sell it through? Want to make it a big selling point of a product? Great!
A Treasure Vault style book for all classes.
A big book with new class feats, class archetypes, items, and more! "Hundreds of feats, 11 new class archetypes, the Wizard Perfected, new class options, items and more!"
Going class by class, the book would talk about the role these classes play in different parts of the world. The culture impact, local meaning and importance.
We'd get slices of life, what each classes mean to the people of Golarion, stories, and, weaving through out all of this would be the new options.
The newer classes would naturally get a heavier focus to expand them out as well.
Not just stuff for the sake of stuff, but an "in the life" expansion of each class which otherwise doesn't have a home.
Round it out with the "Wizard Perfected", a new redesign of the class with some additional instructions on how to adopt the existing archetypes.
Maybe introduce some remastered character options like, FA, Dual classing, etc.
Throw a bow on it and generate the most hype a single product has ever generated by Paizo.
Not a box ticking excercise, but a love letter to all the concepts and ideas that otherwise don't have a place or a home.
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
First, community and customers base are 2 very different things.
Second, a book has to get the designers enthousiastic about it first. And I really believe designing a new class from scratch that will bring a new concept for players to love is much much more motivating for them than improving on an older design. Even moreso when it is someone else's older design.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Second, a book has to get the designers enthousiastic about it first. And I really believe designing a new class from scratch that will bring a new concept for players to love is much much more motivating for them than improving on an older design. Even moreso when it is someone else's older design.
... don't do stuff like this.
Don't go making arguments based on your hypothetical suppositions about the emotional states about a group of people you don't know. You could be right, you could be wrong. Neither of us know it, but trying to use it in to make a point is basically just lying. But, because these are real people after all, you're just being insulting to think that you are entitled to make claims on their collective emotional states.
The Raven Black used words such a "think", "maybe" and "believe". They did not state any speculation or opinion as fact.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Second, a book has to get the designers enthousiastic about it first. And I really believe designing a new class from scratch that will bring a new concept for players to love is much much more motivating for them than improving on an older design. Even moreso when it is someone else's older design.
... don't do stuff like this.
Don't go making arguments based on your hypothetical suppositions about the emotional states about a group of people you don't know. You could be right, you could be wrong. Neither of us know it, but trying to use it in to make a point is basically just lying. But, because these are real people after all, you're just being insulting to think that you are entitled to make claims on their collective emotional states.
In fairness, didn't you do this in your prior post, talking about the most hype people will be for a book? Isn't that doing the same thing to support your point?
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think there's maybe also some underestimating of how many people don't want to be sold Wizard a third time in the same edition.
I know I personally would prefer a new class (for example, a dedicated magical researcher class) to getting a Wizard overhaul. It's just not very interesting to talk about how I'm generally okay with Wizard. I can understand people who do want an overhaul, it's just less interesting to me than something brand new, or more space being used for options in a hypothetical options book.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally I'm at a near saturation for base classes, but would like to see more archetypes.
So I fall into the camp that I would like to see a wizard revamp, rather than a new class. But I think that also wouldn't sell books. Like I wouldn't buy a book just because of a wizard revamp.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They could sell a book about reworking certain classes like the old PF1e unchained. Wizard and inventor deserve it.
They could sell a book about reworking certain classes like the old PF1e unchained. Wizard and inventor deserve it.
I liked the Unchained Book. We changed to the unchained summoner when it came out. It was more fun to have eidolons that truly mirrored the creatures they were supposed to be.
They could sell a book about reworking certain classes like the old PF1e unchained. Wizard and inventor deserve it.I liked the Unchained Book. We changed to the unchained summoner when it came out. It was more fun to have eidolons that truly mirrored the creatures they were supposed to be.
The unchained rogue was also good. The class still had a glass jaw, but was better than the alternative. I enjoyed Unchained as well. It was a nice showcase of optional rules, “fixed” classes, and would be a good way to try some changes before 3e arrives. If I recall correctly, Unchained tested some of the rules that are now included in 2e. It would be great venue to add some changes or additions to sub-systems that could use quality of life alterations.
...
Such a book sounds like it would be a pf2e sendoff, like unchained for pf1e
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But Unchained came 4 years before PF2e's release. It wasn't even close to be sendoff for that edition. It wasn't even the last book with classes on it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But Unchained came 4 years before PF2e's release. It wasn't even close to be sendoff for that edition. It wasn't even the last book with classes on it.
Didn't realize. Fair enough. Well that and the SF1e equivalent being made before the OGL crisis advanced the time table makes a strong case I guess. It could work, and maybe even sell; I wouldn't be opposed to a book of class archetypes.
I'd take an Unchained Wizard that at least gave some of us the option of using a wizard built more like a PF2 class.
I wouldn't mind an unchained summoner too where they built the eidolons to be more like the creatures they are. Let us test run that as an optional book to see how much it impacts the game. I still think they could have put in similar immunities without much impact myself, but the one thing about PF2 design that seems to be a hard rule the designers are working with is: do not break the game and make overpowered options.
Maybe Unchained can loosen that rule up for the design team and let them break the game a little for people that want some more powerful options since the options within unchained would be optional.
So they could make a wizard that broke the game a little for players wanting some of that PF1 wizard power back.
Same for the summoner.
Let the designers have a little fun doing some rules design that isn't so constrained by the balance push in PF2.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But Unchained came 4 years before PF2e's release. It wasn't even close to be sendoff for that edition. It wasn't even the last book with classes on it.
To be fair, Unchained, released in early 2015, was followed in short order by the 6 occult classes in Occult Adventures, mid 2015.
And then it was the Vigilante class with its nightmarish playtest in Ultimate Intrigue, early 2016. And then the Shifter class with zero playtest in Ultimate Wilderness, end of 2017.And then no more classes till PF2 playtest, which was announced in early 2018.
So, the devs gave us a reimagining of existing classes and a new kind of magic with its associated classes in the first semester of 2015. And then almost nothing till PF2.
Given that, as mentioned above, several Unchained systems made it to PF2, it is easy to see why Unchained was seen ex post as PF1's swan song and the precursor to PF2.
Ideally a wizard rework should need to happen sooner than later because otherwise I don't see them changing it that much. Since PC2, we had wizard schools printed in almost every new book (not literally, but kinda), so the more time happens the less likely they are to change how schools work because otherwise they would either need to rework a ton of schools or ignore them completely (which is a thing that sadly happened with a few unchained classes and some of their non-unchained archetypes in PF1e). Or they could make a rework without touching schools too I guess.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Second, a book has to get the designers enthousiastic about it first. And I really believe designing a new class from scratch that will bring a new concept for players to love is much much more motivating for them than improving on an older design. Even moreso when it is someone else's older design.
Remaster Oracle has entered the chat.
But yes, I don't think we're getting another Wizard redo. That just isn't how Paizo operates. The goal is to sell books, and "new thing" sells more books than "a third attempt at an existing thing because the last time we redid it we messed it up" will.
It's exceedingly frustrating with how many things get put out and then are basically abandoned immediately, and it feels like a frankly outdated business model these days. Product support matters more these days than it did in the past, especially as the industry and players are gradually shifting away from books (which can't really be changed) to more digital play (where updates are easy).
People who play exclusively with digital tools can definitely feel like they're not being well taken care of when things that are clearly messed up don't get fixed for years/never get fixed, when for how they're playing its actually pretty easy.
Some problems can be fixed by adding feats or a class archetype (and they seem to be doing a lot of wizard class archetypes lately), but using those as fixes really requires a clear understanding of what the problem with Wizard is. And I'm not sure there really is a clear vision on just what fix would actually solve it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But Unchained came 4 years before PF2e's release. It wasn't even close to be sendoff for that edition. It wasn't even the last book with classes on it.
A lot of the Unchained changes wound up in PF2, though. The action economy, monster building, ABP, barbarians using temp HP and bonus damage instead of STR/CON boosts, eidolons becoming less modular and more template based.
Plus, officially PF2 launched in 2019, but most of these rules were already in use for the play test in 2018, and I'm pretty sure Paizo staff were building and playing those rules on the DL for years. The Pathfinder Second Edition playtest was officially announced on March 6, 2018. The playtest itself was launched on August 2, 2018. They didn't build an entire new system in six months. But had they announced the system's development years prior, people would be less likely to buy PF1 books.
In retrospect, if Unchained wasn't a send off to PF1, it was certainly a stepping stone.
|
|
Okay, had a stupid idea recently, and thought this might be funny.
a STRENGTH based spontaneous caster. Only unarmored proficiency for armor, only unarmed attacks. you have base 2+1 slots per rank. your special gimmick is "Flex casting" any spell that has the auditory trait, instead gains the manipulate trait as you are casting by flexing your incredible muscles and striking various poses. Two of your slots per rank are normal spontaneous casting. however. it's that second pool of spell slots that make up your REAL gimmick.
at level one you pick four spells from the arcane spell list (these are for use with your normal spontaneous spell slots) and four rank one spells FROM ANY LIST. these four spells are added to your FLEX repertoire IN A specific order (that you can change each time you prepare for the day).
To cast a spell from your flex repertoire you must roll a d4 to determine which of your four flex repertoire spells you cast.
Your Flex repertoire grows at specific points so that the die you roll grows to a d6, d8, and eventually a d10.
|
Okay, had a stupid idea recently, and thought this might be funny.
a STRENGTH based spontaneous caster. Only unarmored proficiency for armor, only unarmed attacks. you have base 2+1 slots per rank. your special gimmick is "Flex casting" any spell that has the auditory trait, instead gains the manipulate trait as you are casting by flexing your incredible muscles and striking various poses. Two of your slots per rank are normal spontaneous casting. however. it's that second pool of spell slots that make up your REAL gimmick.
at level one you pick four spells from the arcane spell list (these are for use with your normal spontaneous spell slots) and four rank one spells FROM ANY LIST. these four spells are added to your FLEX repertoire IN A specific order (that you can change each time you prepare for the day).
To cast a spell from your flex repertoire you must roll a d4 to determine which of your four flex repertoire spells you cast.Your Flex repertoire grows at specific points so that the die you roll grows to a d6, d8, and eventually a d10.
While I agree with the idea of a MUSCLE WIZARD, there's a slight problem with your "Flex Casting" gimmick: most spells already have the manipulate trait.
...Or did you mean the "visual" trait?| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, had a stupid idea recently, and thought this might be funny.
a STRENGTH based spontaneous caster. Only unarmored proficiency for armor, only unarmed attacks. you have base 2+1 slots per rank. your special gimmick is "Flex casting" any spell that has the auditory trait, instead gains the manipulate trait as you are casting by flexing your incredible muscles and striking various poses. Two of your slots per rank are normal spontaneous casting. however. it's that second pool of spell slots that make up your REAL gimmick.
at level one you pick four spells from the arcane spell list (these are for use with your normal spontaneous spell slots) and four rank one spells FROM ANY LIST. these four spells are added to your FLEX repertoire IN A specific order (that you can change each time you prepare for the day).
To cast a spell from your flex repertoire you must roll a d4 to determine which of your four flex repertoire spells you cast.Your Flex repertoire grows at specific points so that the die you roll grows to a d6, d8, and eventually a d10.
Is that you, Mash Burnedead? :D
Is that you, Mash Burnedead? :DOkay, had a stupid idea recently, and thought this might be funny.
a STRENGTH based spontaneous caster. Only unarmored proficiency for armor, only unarmed attacks. you have base 2+1 slots per rank. your special gimmick is "Flex casting" any spell that has the auditory trait, instead gains the manipulate trait as you are casting by flexing your incredible muscles and striking various poses. Two of your slots per rank are normal spontaneous casting. however. it's that second pool of spell slots that make up your REAL gimmick.
at level one you pick four spells from the arcane spell list (these are for use with your normal spontaneous spell slots) and four rank one spells FROM ANY LIST. these four spells are added to your FLEX repertoire IN A specific order (that you can change each time you prepare for the day).
To cast a spell from your flex repertoire you must roll a d4 to determine which of your four flex repertoire spells you cast.Your Flex repertoire grows at specific points so that the die you roll grows to a d6, d8, and eventually a d10.
It's such a silly show. It reminds me of a mashup of One Punch Man and Black Clover.