| Brightsaber |
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Per Rise of New Thassilon (Book 6 of Return of the Runelords), Sorshen is canonically slated to leave behind Thassilonian rune magic and retrain as a universalist wizard. From the wizard character creation advice that I've read, universalist wizards are generally considered lackluster compared to school-specialized wizards. What are better (more powerful) non-school-specialized options? I've heard good things about exploiter wizards—would that be the best choice?
Because I still think in terms of v.3.5 instead of 1st edition Pathfinder, I want to rebuild Sorshen as an optimization case study to improve my system mastery (which is low), which is why I'm posting in Advice. The primary goal is to optimize Sorshen to be "more powerful" with the caveat that this build is for the long haul and not just for a single adventure or AP; we're looking a time-frame of at least another 11,000 years and preferably all of eternity. Although her style tends towards indirectness (very appropriate for an enchanter), it would be nice if the resulting build could go toe-to-toe with a mythic opponent in her weight class and have a decent chance of winning. The secondary goal is to select options that feel like a good fit based on canon descriptions of post-Return-of-the-Runelords Sorshen; feel free to mention other options that would suit a generic power build (I do want to learn how to build well-optimized characters) but identify them as not fitting Sorshen. After this upgrade, we still want Sorshen to feel like Sorshen and not a clone of Baba Yaga, the Ruby Phoenix, Nex, Geb, the Whispering Tyrant, Old-Mage Jatembe, etc. Finally, Runeplague (Book 3 of Return of the Runelords) has a blood simulacrum of Sorshen, so this is both an opportunity to practice the process of creating a simulacrum and selecting options that also work at a lower power level. We want her simulacrums to be effective agents and convincing doubles.
Let's start with ability scores. Sorshen has Exceptional Stats for a 25-point buy. My numbers are based on https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vb3j?6-Rise-of-New-Thassilon#41 and https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vb3j?6-Rise-of-New-Thassilon#46. Sorshen's resulting Constitution is higher than listed in Book 6. Her simulacrum's Dexterity and Constitution are lower than listed in Book 3 (even after applying level increases there instead of Intelligence) and her simulacrum's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma are higher. Yes, I don't think it's appropriate for the simulacrum's level increases to apply to different abilities than Sorshen's, but that's the smallest change I can devise while also trying to get Dex and Con as close as possible to the numbers in Book 3—does anyone have a better solution?
Sorshen
Str 2 pts=12 +2a+5i+6e = 25
Dex 1 pt=11 +2a+5i+6e = 24
Con 1 pt=11 +2a+5i+6e = 24
Int 13 pts=17 +2a+5i+3v+5l+2m+6e = 40
Wis –2 pts=8 +2a+5i+3v+6e = 24
Cha 10 pts=16 +2a+5i+3v+8m+6e = 40
Blood Simulacrum
Str 2 pts=12 +2a = 14
Dex 1 pt=11 +2a+1l = 14
Con 1 pt=11 +2a+1l = 14
Int 13 pts=17 +2a+3v+2e = 24
Wis –2 pts=8 +2a+3v = 13
Cha 10 pts=16 +2a+3v+2e = 23
a=azlanti racials
i=inherent
v=venerable age
l=level increase
m=mythic increase
e=enhancement (Sorshen: from either Scintillating Garment or both belt of physical perfection +6 and headband of mental superiority +6 | Simulacrum: from Dance of Seven Veils)
Moving on to feats, a comparison of Sorshen and her simulacrum's feats divides them into two groups—the ones she selected up through 10th level and those selected afterwards. I've read many posts advising that arcane fullcasters (especially blade adept arcanists) should never choose to engage in mêlée, so Combat Expertise (which requires either an attack or full attack action to use) doesn't seem to fit. I'd move Spell Penetration into its place to help her simulacrum be a more convincing double when casting spells. Is there a better choice to replace Combat Expertise?
In the "after" group, I've added Leadership—it would be useful to form a loyal core of followers who can be relied upon to faithfully execute her designs as she builds New Eurythnia; after all, this time, she's truly playing the long game—another ten millennia or more—not merely for an adventure or even an AP. Alternately, Greater Spell Penetration would always be useful. Again, is there a better choice?
I understand Dodge's usefulness for touch AC, but I'm not sure about mythic Dodge's usefulness compared to other mythic feats. I've only read the mythic rules but never actually played a game using mythic, but I like the concept of Mythic Paragon. I like how Mythic Paragon boosts effective mythic tier for many mythic abilities, so I'm thinking it should replace mythic Dodge.
Does Sorshen seem like the sort of person to keep Spell Focus (enchantment), Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), mythic Spell Focus (enchantment), and Contagious Spell as a reminder of her past, or would she retrain those feats? I'm thinking that she would keep the non-mythic feats as a nod to her past, but retrain mythic Spell Focus (enchantment) to Dual Path (archmage) as a nod to her future and her embrace of all magical traditions.
In the description of Sorshen’s Sinuous Guisarme, Sorshen will abandon her title of Runelord of Lust when she "fully takes on the mantle of ruler of New Thassilon." That sounds like she needs a new Alara'quin—and she's the prime candidate for creating her new one since Xin (the creator of the 7 Alara'quin) isn't around anymore. We know that she's able to create major artifacts because it took her only 27 years from the discovery of the Everdawn Pool to analyze it and reverse -engineer it to create the more powerful the Eye of Desire/Runewell of Lust while still fulfilling her responsibilities as Runelord of Fertility or Love (as she was back then).
The existing Alara'quin weapon types are adamantine ranseur (wrath), dragon-tooth longspear (sloth), scythe (gluttony), lucerne hammer of unknown metal (pride), (gold and) mithral halberd (envy), double-headed mithral guisarme (lust), and glaive (greed). I like the nodachi because it can do piercing or slashing damage and because of its chances of scoring a critical hit, so I see Sorshen retraining from guisarme to nodachi as her new Alara'quin to symbolize her abandonment of Lust and her commitment to the future as Queen of New Thassilon. "Djezet is associated with enchantment magic, love, and lust," so I expect that Sorshen has studied it extensively and so would not be surprised if she had devised a djezet-based alloy that could be made as hard and tough as adamantine like the Alara'hai, Chellan. Because a dose of djezet can increase the effective level of a spell by +1, a djezet alloy weapon is also thematically appropriate to represent her embrace of all magic.
Since the nodachi is a martial weapon, adding a weapon modification only increases the weapon category by one step to exotic. Given the chances of scoring a critical hit (and expecting her new Alara'quin to be keen to boost that), Jagged Hooks (+2 damage on a critical hit) seems reasonable. Her simulacrums can use nodachis that have the keen and training (Exotic Weapon Proficiency (nodachi)) special abilities.
Human Eschew Materials
Lvl 1 Spell Focus (enchantment)
Lvl 3 Toughness
Lvl 5 Iron Will
Lvl 7 Dodge
Lvl 9 Spell Penetration
Lvl 11 Greater Spell Focus (enchantment)
Lvl 13 Quicken Spell
Lvl 15 Contagious Spell
Lvl 17 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (nodachi with weapon mod.)
Lvl 19 Leadership
Wiz 1 Scribe Scroll
Wiz 5 Craft Wondrous Item
Wiz 10 Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Wiz 15 Inscribe Rune
Wiz 20 Craft Construct
MT1 Spell Penetration
MT3 Iron Will
MT5 Dual Path
MT7 Toughness
MT9 Mythic Paragon
As an exploiter wizard, Sorshen gets 5 exploits and 13 arcane reservoir points (max. 23), and her simulacrum gets 3 exploits and 8 arcane reservoir points (max. 13). As someone who chose the trickster mythic path, she would naturally appreciate the flexibility offered by Quick Study and Metamixing. Potent Magic can compensate for the removal of mythic Spell Focus (enchantment) and boost spells of other schools as well. For the other two exploits, I'm thinking of Metamagic Knowledge (not sure which metamagic feat—any suggestions? Dazing Spell?) and Item Crafting (Forge Ring? Craft Staff?) but using the mythic universal path ability Ultimate Versatility to change those to Dimensional Slide or Spell Tinkerer or whatever else is needed (even Arcane Weapon if she absolutely must fight in mêlée).
EWiz1 Quick Study
EWiz5 Potent Magic
EWiz9 Metamagic Knowledge
EWiz13 Metamixing
EWiz17 Item Crafting
As a wizard, Sorshen gets 2 skill points per level. As an Azlanti human, she gets 1 bonus skill point per level. With an Intelligence of 40, Sorshen gets 15 more bonus skill points per level, and her simulacrum gets 7 bonus skill points per level from Int 24. By abandoning the Enchantment school specialization, she loses enchanting smile's +6 enhancement bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate, and her simulacrum loses the corresponding +4 bonus.
If Sorshen takes off both her Scintillating Garment and her headband of mental superiority +6 (I'm assuming both apply bonus skill points to the same skills), then her Int drops to 34, and she loses the skill points in Escape Artist, Fly, and Use Magic Device. To get to the +38 Fly skill in her stat block, she must have used 6 bonus skill points from her Favored Class Bonus (leaving +14 bonus hp)—I can't see or think of any other way to get the skill modifier up that high—so she still has a +18 Fly skill even without those two magic items. Escape Artist can be used untrained, so she is +9 in that skill without those two magic items.
There are 19 skills in Sorshen's stat block, but she only gets 18 skill points per level. I chose Craft (tattoo) and Craft (weapons) as the two skills that get half the usual skill points. I see Sorshen as a clothing fashionista and sculptor, so tattoos and weapons are merely secondary creative outlets for her.
Most Intelligence-enhancing magic items specify that the bonus skill points from the increased Int go into specific skills, but there is no such note in the description of the blood simulacrum's Dance of Seven Veils. Therefore, I'm taking full advantage of the flexibility offered by this omission to set the simulacrum's Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility), Knowledge (planes), and Knowledge (religion) to +15. Without the Dance of Seven Veils, the simulacrum's Int drops to 22, K (local) and K (nobility) drops to +12, and K (planes) and K (religion) drops to +13.
Sorshen
Bluff 20s +2l+15a = +37
Diplomacy 20s +2l+15a = +37
Disguise 20s +2l+15a = +37
Intimidate 20s +2l+15a = +37
Knowledge (arcana) 20s +2l+15a+3c = +40
Knowledge (local) 20s +2l+15a+3c = +40
Knowledge (nobility) 20s +2l+15a+3c = +40
Knowledge (planes) 20s +2l+15a+3c = +40
Knowledge (religion) 20s +2l+15a+3c = +40
Perception 20s +2l+7a = +29
Sense Motive 20s +2l+7a = +29
Spellcraft 20s +2l+15a+3c = +40
Craft (clothing) 20s +2l+15a+3c = +40
Craft (sculpture) 20s +2l+15a+3c = +40
Craft (tattoo) 10s +2l+15a+3c = +30
Craft (weapons) 10s +2l+15a+3c = +30
Escape Artist 20s +2l+7a = +29/+9
Fly 20s +2l+7a+3c+6f = +38/+18
Use Magic Device 20s +2l+15a = +47
Blood Simulacrum
Bluff 10s +6a+4k = +20
Diplomacy 10s +6a+4k = +20
Disguise 10s +6a = +16
Intimidate 10s +6a = +16
Knowledge (arcana) 10s +7a+3c = +20
Knowledge (local) 5s +7a+3c = +15/+12
Knowledge (nobility) 5s +7a+3c = +15/+12
Knowledge (planes) 5s +7a+3c = +15/+13
Knowledge (religion) 5s +7a+3c = +15/+13
Perception 10s +1a = +11
Sense Motive 10s +1a = +11
Spellcraft 10s +7a+3c = +20
s=skill ranks
l=luck bonus (from Sorshen’s Sinuous Guisarme)
a=ability score modifier
c=class skill
f=favored class bonus
k=competence bonus (from Dance of Seven Veils)
Finally, we get to her mythic path abilities. As I mentioned earlier, I've never played a mythic game, so my assessment is based on my gut reaction to each path ability's description. I am assuming that she took the Dual Path (archmage) mythic feat as mentioned above. Wild Arcana sounds like the best of the three archmage arcana options. I don't see any reason to change Fleet Charge as her trickster attack because it could be used as a method of withdrawing from a bad position as well as a method of attacking.
I counted only 8 path abilities instead of 10 in her stat block. Did I miss something? Assuming that I'm right about that, I propose to add Mirror Dodge and Ultimate Versatility as the missing path abilities. I've heard that mythic games usually turn into nuclear rocket tag, so Mirror Dodge will help her avoid getting tagged. Ultimate Versatility has already been discussed with exploits.
She has confusion, dispel magic, dominate person, irresistible dance, power word kill, power word blind, power word stun, stoneskin, and suggestion marked as mythic spells in her spells prepared list. With Mythic Paragon, Mythic Spellcasting gives us three more mythic spells to be specified when needed (or we could do that now).
With Mythic Paragon, Enduring Armor improves to a +15 armor bonus to AC, Thwart Detection increases to 12 allies, and Vanishing Move improves to CL 24. Both Mythic Presence and Menacing Whisper improve to DC 37.
I can see Mythic Presence used for crowd dispersal—especially if she somehow gets caught in mêlée. However, if there's something clearly better or more useful, then Mythic Presence might be a candidate for replacement.
I don't see the usefulness of Menacing Whisper. Can you see her invisibly standing next to a creature and either intimidating it or employing mythic power to use suggestion? With her other listed path abilities, I can imagine situations (or emergencies) where they are useful, but not for Menacing Whisper. Compared to a regular use of Intimidate to demoralize, it trades a range of 30 feet for the target not being able to see her. The suggestion option trades range (75 feet at CL 20) for a +9 DC compared to a use of Wild Arcana. The combination of needing to be adjacent to the target and also unseen by the target just kills this for me as a viable option.
Dual Path opens all of the archmage path abilities as potential choices and frees up Path Dabbling for a path ability from a third mythic path. Class Mimic, Channel Power, Component Freedom, Eldritch Breach, Overcome Curse (from Hierophant), Enduring Blessing (Hierophant), Sustained by Faith (Hierophant), Words of Valor (from Marshal), Words of Hope (Marshal), Loyalty (Marshal), and Impossible Speed (from Champion) all seem useful . If Leadership isn't selected as a feat, then Loyalty would be useful for establishing a core group of loyal and dependable followers. Component Freedom can substitute for Silent Spell, Still Spell, or a material component or focus worth 1200 gp or less each and every time she casts a spell; she could save on the cost of ruby dust for forcecage and true seeing ointment. Overcome Curse could be good defensively ("Thank you for that pretty, diamond-encrusted necklace of strangulation, but it didn't strangle me. Maybe it's defective? Here, you try it."). Class Mimic boosts versatility which a trickster would value. Channel Power probably provides the biggest boost for just about any spell she casts, so that's at the top of my list of replacements for Menacing Whisper.
MT1 enduring armor
MT2 mythic spellcasting
MT3 mirror dodge
MT4 perfect mimic
MT5 subtle magic
MT6 mythic presence
MT7 thwart detection
MT8 vanishing move
MT9 channel power
MT10 ultimate versatility
I eagerly await your advice.
| Dryad Knotwood |
Just some stuff to help you out:
Two of the mythic abilities were used for stat increases per James Jacobs who built her originally in this thread
And imo, Sorshen would be fine as a Universalist, she doesn't really need to be rebuilt as an Exploiter. Changing out her school and removing the extra spells for enchantment would be good. If you want to change her archetype, then the more thematic choice would be Runesage to show her attaining better mastery of Thassilonian magic.
Personally, when rebuilding a character for changes in environment/personality, I'd say using the base build and making only major changes that are thematic is a better indicator of system mastery than rebuilding the entire thing from scratch.
That said, if you do want to add some power, you can always add one of the alternate capstones from Chronicle of Legends supplementary book. Well-Prepared is particularly reasonable, giving several extra spell slots per day for a wizard
| Azothath |
I think Sorshen is more practical in her character. Realizing the time of the Runelords, Lisalla, etc had passed are major concessions. Plus plot wise one had to make it... she noticed Nocticula's path.
Ability Scores are a function of CR, that simple. Sure her Str is unreasonable for a PC or 25pt buy wizarding type but she does have to wield that big weapon effectively. She may have done some tinkering with her past clones...
Dumping the undead is practical... give them a all expense paid (one-way) cruise to Geb...
Classes: Wizard(Enchanter) & Thassilonian PrC(a horrible trap but good to Retrain out of!). I'm not sure Arcanist-Exploiter was around but it's a retrain option, Wizard(Ench) is better. Thematically Runesage, Cyphermage, etc fit.
| Brightsaber |
Thank you for your responses! I apologize for not replying sooner, but real life has a way of draining away the time available for Pathfinder.
Azothath, James Jacobs stated that the Strength given in Book 6 is an error and should be 25, so that's why I aimed for 25 in my calculations.
Book 3 Runeplague NPC Gallery description of Sorshen's Simulacrum mentions "...the souls of her vampiric army drifted away to be judged...." It sounds like Sorshen gave her undead minions an all-expense-paid (one-way) cruise to Pharasma, not Geb.
Book 6 makes it clear that she would eventually retrain out of enchanter wizard and the Thassilonian specialist archetype, so she can't remain an enchanter wizard. The way I interpreted her write-up in the Book 6 NPC Gallery and the Beyond the Campaign article was that she was moving beyond just Thassilonian rune magic and embracing all magical traditions, so I didn't think that runesage or cyphermage would be an appropriate archetype. I proposed exploiter wizard and that set of exploits because she would get another metamagic feat and item creation feat (signifying the expansion of her magical knowledge) and because she could use her arcane reservoir to make her spells more powerful and/or versatile (signifying greater mastery of magic).
Dryad Knotwood, when I started my calculations in my initial post, I was able to hit all her Book 6 numbers and the Str 25 (and slightly exceed the Book 6 Constitution) without needing the Enhanced Ability mythic Universal Path Ability. Because of that, that other statement from James Jacobs didn't seem to make sense unless her stats were intended to be even higher.
I agree that the key to retaining a character's character is to minimize the number of changes. I proposed changing 2 regular feats and 2 mythic feats. Skill modifiers remain close to the Book 6 numbers. Since we don't need Exceptional Ability, I've filled in the 2 missing mythic path abilities. My initial proposal was to change only 1 existing mythic path ability, but, on second thought, I'd also replace Mythic Presence with either Path Dabbling (Overcome Curse) or Component Freedom. Aside from adding an archetype and replacing her Alara'quin, that's not all that many changes.
Well-Prepared does seem nice, but Sorshen has been around for a long time, so Won't Stay Dead might explain that. However, the alternate capstone that appeals to me the most is The Boss, which includes the Leadership feat; we can keep Craft Construct by moving it from the Wiz20 feat (the 20th level capstone) to the regular Lvl19 feat. In this case, The Boss alternate capstone represents word of Sorshen getting out and the large number of people flocking to her such that, while "...Eurythnia, is at first more sparsely populated than Edasseril," it does not remain more sparsely populated than Edasseril for long.
| Azothath |
I don't know Sorshen's background or plot usefulness that well, seems like a macguffin salesman.
I view her character as a self-serving arcane researcher who spent a lot of time in self indulgence, fostered evil undead lackeys, and now is adapting to the current political environment.
I do know how to build effective wizards. Searching about in the Advice forum will give you several of my builds. Thassilonian Specialist arch is terrible. School specialist is the way to go. I'd say Enchantment/Manipulator or Divination(focusing elsewhere). For the fun of it try my Mage-killer Build on Sorshen switching her weapon (use Disguise Weapon to keep it looking the same, you can use weapon modifications).
Ignore: Eschew Materials, Toughness, Iron Will, Dodge, Spell Penetration, Leadership. Take better feats and use spells.
her weapon is a bit tricky and I'd try a trait first or an alternate race trait, THEN be forced into an exotic Wpn Proficiency. Bestow Weapon Proficiency is the spell you want as an option.
You will need to choose a high level outsider associate/acolyte. Then 4 apprentice wizards at 18-20th level. Some entertainment like a Bard 16 and some varisian dancers. Add in your guards (retired black-jacket commander, Gunslingers, Unch Summoners, non-lethal specialists).
| Azothath |
Azothath's Builds: Mage-killer build FlowMonk2 Wiz(Divnr)7
Azothath's Builds: Wiz arch Spell Sage @ 5th & 11th
Azothath's Builds: Wizard - Poleiheira Adherent archetype 8
Azothath's Builds: Wiz-Diviner 4 Clr-Varisian Pilgrim 1
other builds
Azothath's Homebrew: Wizard archetype Vedelys (Azlanti caster)
Azothath's Homebrew: Wizard archetype Tutelary{replaces Pact Wiz(HHH)}
| Dryad Knotwood |
Thank you for your responses! I apologize for not replying sooner, but real life has a way of draining away the time available for Pathfinder.Dryad Knotwood, when I started my calculations in my initial post, I was able to hit all her Book 6 numbers and the Str 25 (and slightly exceed the Book 6 Constitution) without needing the Enhanced Ability mythic Universal Path Ability. Because of that, that other statement from James Jacobs didn't seem to make sense unless her stats were intended to be even higher.
No worries, real life takes precedence over hobbies.
Personally, when I rebuilt Sorshen's statblock, I found that the following allows me to hit the Simulacrum's stats perfectly:
Str -4 pts=7 +2a = 9
Dex 7 pt=15 +2a = 17
Con 7 pt=15 +2a = 17
Int 10 pts=16 +2a+1l+2e = 21
Wis -2 pts=8 +2a = 10
Cha 7 pts=15 +2a+1l+2e = 20
This then leads into making Sorshen's statblock as the following:
Str -4 pts=7 +2a+5i+6e= 20
Dex 7 pt=15 +2a+5i+6e+2m= 30
Con 7 pt=15 +2a+5i+6e= 28
Int 10 pts=16 +2a+2l++5i+6e+3v+4m+2(path ability)= 40
Wis -2 pts=8 +2a++5i+6e+3v= 24
Cha 7 pts=15 +2a+3l+5i+6e+3v+4m+2(path ability)= 40
This makes her physical ability scores exactly 6 above what the book shows, hence why my thought is that someone messed up the math for the official stats by either forgetting the enhancement bonuses to physical stats or reduced her stats by the age penalties. It also makes the least changes to her statblock.