Animal Companion support benefits and Force Barrage - "Automatically hits"

[horsey-rounders]

So, a few animal companions, such as Ape and Bear, have support benefits with the wording of "if you hit and deal damage to a creature..."

Someone brought up that Force Barrage's text could potentially trigger this - "it automatically hits and deals 1d4+1 force damage."

Is this an intended interaction? By RAW, it seems like it works - but I question whether or not it's RAI. Especially with the potential to hit a very large number of creatures with the likes of Bear's d8s of damage, or Ape's frightened. Also consider Wand of Shardstorm.

[Errenor]

Quote:

Support Benefit A special benefit you gain by Commanding the Animal to use the Support action (see below).

Quote:

Support [one-action]

Requirements The creature is an animal companion.Your animal companion supports you. You gain the benefits listed in the companion type’s Support Benefit entry. If the animal uses the Support action, the only other actions it can use on this turn are basic move actions to get into position to take advantage of the Support benefits; if it has already used any other action this turn, it can’t Support you.

Ape wrote:

Support Benefit Your ape threatens your foes with menacing growls. Until the start of your next turn, if you hit and deal damage to a creature in your ape's reach, the creature becomes frightened 1.

Yeah, I will definitely read this as only applicable to Strikes. No mass spells (and any spells to not have to worry about spells with several Spell attacks).

Though Bear already doesn't have this problem, Strikes only:

Bear wrote:

Support Benefit Your bear mauls your enemies when you create an opening. Until the start of your next turn, each time you hit a creature in the bear's reach with a Strike, the creature takes 1d8 slashing damage from the bear. If your bear is nimble or savage, the slashing damage increases to 2d8.

And a lot of others already are written like:

-your Strikes that damage a creature
-if you hit with a Strike and deal damage to a creature
-you damage with your Strikes
so reading everywhere 'hit' as 'Strike that damages' is ok.

[Castilliano]

Paizo has been pretty careful about clarifying when a Strike is necessary vs. a hit. If just a hit, then Spell Attack rolls would work too, like with a Precision Ranger, but not Sneak Attack. I definitely wouldn't count "hit by an AoE", though Force Barrage falls in a gray zone (and was even originally going to be a Spell Attack in PF2 except the pushback was too strong from decades of tradition). Hmm.

[NorrKnekten]

I'm on the side that since Ape does not specify a Strike then any damage dealing attack roll would be elegible. Especially since that is what is written and follows what is expected from RAW. (All attack-rolls either hit or miss)

Be it ranged or melee strikes, spell-attacks or kineticist impulses, as said this does not apply to Bear since bear specify strikes.

Force barrage while not an attack roll does say that it hits so just using common sense it sounds like it works with the ape but I cannot see this as intended in that you can get a force barrage to automatically frighten all creatures adjacent to your ape.

[horsey-rounders]

Yeah, I misread bear. But Ape is the main one in question. I think there might be others but you get the idea with ape.

[Baarogue]

I reviewed all of the animal companions on AoN, and found only a few that did not specify Strikes or other specific actions. As Errenor already pointed out, Bear does not share the wording of Ape. It requires a Strike. Of the rest, here are the ones that only said "hit and deal damage" and their source

Ape Support Benefit, PC1 p.206 wrote:

Your ape threatens your foes with menacing growls. Until the start of your next turn, if you hit and deal damage to a creature in your ape's reach, the creature becomes frightened 1.

Arboreal Sapling Support Benefit, PC1 p.206 wrote:

Your arboreal sapling plants roots around your foe, impeding its movement. Until the start of your next turn, if you hit and deal damage to a creature in your arboreal sapling's reach, the first square the creature moves into after taking that damage is difficult terrain.

Badger Support Benefit, PC1 p.207 wrote:

Your badger digs around your foe's position, interfering with its footing. Until the start of your next turn, if you hit and deal damage to a creature your badger threatens, the target can't use a Step action (unless it can Step through difficult terrain) until it moves from its current position.

Elephant Support Benefit, Pathfinder #177: Burning Tundra pg. 73 wrote:

Your elephant trumpets noisily and menaces your enemy. The first creature within your elephant's reach that you hit and deal damage to before the start of your next turn has difficulty hearing as its ears ring from the noise, taking a –4 status penalty to purely auditory Perception checks until the end of your next turn.

("the first creature", so not multi-hit)

Elk Support Benefit, Howl of the Wild p.90 wrote:

Your elk makes a threatening display by waving its antlers. Until the start of your next turn, if you hit and deal damage to a creature within your elk’s reach, the creature is frightened 1.

Mole Support Benefit, Howl of the Wild p.91 wrote:

Your mole leaps into the ground and burrows beneath your foes, disturbing their footing. Until the end of your next turn, if you hit and damage a creature adjacent to your mole, that creature is clumsy 1 until it moves from its current position.

(this one differs from most in that it works until the END of your next turn instead of the start, but only requires the enemy to move to negate)

Rhinoceros Support Benefit, Pathfinder #177: Burning Tundra pg. 73 wrote:

Your rhino swings its heavy head to unbalance your enemy. The first creature within your rhino's reach that you hit and deal damage to before the start of your next turn becomes clumsy 1 until the end of your next turn.

("the first creature", so not multi-hit)

Salamander Support Benefit, Howl of the Wild p.92 wrote:

Your salamander secretes a poisonous, viscous fluid from its skin. Until the start of your next turn, if you or your salamander are hit by a creature adjacent to the salamander, that creature takes 1d6 poison damage. This damage increases to 2d6 if the salamander is nimble or savage.

(a reverse benefit working off enemy hits, but not specifically Strikes)

Tyrannosaurus Support Benefit, Pathfinder #177: Burning Tundra pg. 74 wrote:

Your tyrannosaurus roars and puts on a fearsome display as you attack, startling your foes. Until the start of your next turn, if you hit and deal damage to a creature within your tyrannosaurus's reach, the creature is frightened 1.

Vulture Support Benefit, Pathfinder #149: Against the Scarlet Triad pg. 80 wrote:

The vulture retches and vomits onto a foe within 10 feet. Until the start of your next turn, if you hit and deal damage to the target, the target must succeed at a Fortitude save or become sickened 1 (sickened 2 on a critical failure). The DC of the Fortitude save is 12 (or 14, if the vulture is a specialized animal companion) + your level + the vulture’s Constitution modifier.

(single target and must be set up in advance but doesn't specify Strikes)

Water Wraith Support Benefit, Impossible Lands p.107 wrote:

Your water wraith hisses and changes colors swiftly in an iridescent clash, overwhelming your foes in an avalanche of shades and hues. Until the start of your next turn, each time you hit a creature within your water wraith's reach, the creature is dazzled for 1 round.

Yzobu Support Benefit, Tian Xia Character Guide pg. 123 wrote:

The next creature to make a melee attack against the yzobu or its rider before the start of your next turn is overwhelmed by the creature’s terrible stench and must attempt a Fortitude save. This DC is equal to your class DC or spell DC, whichever is higher. On a failure, the attacker takes a –2 circumstance penalty to its attack roll. This ability has the olfactory trait.

(reverse benefit and "the next creature" so not multi-hit, specifies melee attack but not Strike)

There are a few animal companions with support benefits similar to those above, like Hyena causing frightened and Water Elemental causing clumsy, but which do specify Strikes

Considering the majority of the support benefits with the more loose wording of "hit" instead of specifying "with a Strike" only impose conditions (though frightened and clumsy are very good conditions to impose) or cause other nuisances like making the area difficult terrain, I don't have a problem allowing them to work off a spell attack, even auto-hit ones like Magic Missile/Force Barrage. Even in a situation where you Force Barrage foes adjacent to your Ape or Badger, since you would need to Command your animal companion beforehand, at most you could auto-frighten/clumsy only two foes adjacent to them at the expense of using that third action for the spell. You decide if the conditions are worth the lost damage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A Wand of Shardstorm is not an issue except with the Mole due to its unique wording. All the other support benefits end at the start of your next turn, which is when the Wand of Shardstorm fires its additional missile(s)

But as pointed out by Cas and Norr while I was still typing, still note the use of the word "hit." A hit is the result of a successful attack roll, not a skill check like Grapple or an effect with a saving throw, even if it's single target

[NorrKnekten]

Baarogue wrote:

Even in a situation where you Force Barrage foes adjacent to your Ape or Badger, since you would need to Command your animal companion beforehand, at most you could auto-frighten/clumsy only two foes adjacent to them at the expense of using that third action for the spell. You decide if the conditions are worth the lost damage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Because of the way the spell heightens.

At rank 1 its two, Then at 3 it becomes four, then at 5 it becomes six. It kinda gets to the point where losing 1d4+1 is such a small part of the spell that frightening another target is always worth it, especially when you have bonuses to damage rolls like that from a bard or marshal which causes spreading of damage to actually deal more total damage.

If you consider that fine then so be it but I the way I see it makes it rather improbable of it being RAI.

[Baarogue]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

Even in a situation where you Force Barrage foes adjacent to your Ape or Badger, since you would need to Command your animal companion beforehand, at most you could auto-frighten/clumsy only two foes adjacent to them at the expense of using that third action for the spell. You decide if the conditions are worth the lost damage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Because of the way the spell heightens.

At rank 1 its two, Then at 3 it becomes four, then at 5 it becomes six. It kinda gets to the point where losing 1d4+1 is such a small part of the spell that frightening another target is always worth it, especially when you have bonuses to damage rolls like that from a bard or marshal which causes spreading of damage to actually deal more total damage.

If you consider that fine then so be it but I the way I see it makes it rather improbable of it being RAI.

Yeah, I wasn't considering heightened Force Barrage, and maybe it isn't RAI, but I can't see a path to claim it isn't RAW unless you want to argue that since it doesn't involve an attack roll its use of the phrase "automatically hits" doesn't count. That's getting a little too far from the "natural language" approach for my tastes. However, anyone who overextends their ape to put them adjacent to so many foes isn't going to have an animal companion for long so it's a self-solving exploit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[NorrKnekten]

Thats pretty much the point I was making, its absolutely RAW that when read naturally the force barrage 'hits' and the target becomes frightened. But it might not the the intention behind it. I can absolutely see it abused even if its just dumping 6 bolts into one target off in the distance and getting two guaranteed frighten at the cost of 4d4+4, Which isnt really alot of damage at that point. Imagine that with something that gains extra benefits when striking frightened targets.

[Squiggit]

Abused seems like a strong word considering the work involved here, imo. Like you're taking feats for a companion, maneuvering them into a very dangerous position, then burning a spell slot and splitting up your damage (which is usually a bad idea) to frighten 1 a few enemies.

That's kind of a cool synergy but that's also a lot of investment and risk too just for frightened 1.

[NorrKnekten]

Is it a lot of investment though? Most of the time i feel you would place the companion adjacent to two creatures either way to flank, so the support would just be instead of a grab or attack. The spellslot would be used either way as that's just what casters normally do.

I guess I wouldn't want to prep Force Barrage instead of Rank 3 fear just for the frighten but I know just how potent any Dread Striker shenanigans can be when coupled with guaranteed frighten application.

[Squiggit]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Is it a lot of investment though?

Multiple feats for your companion. All of your actions to command and then cast. Casting specific spells you might not normally cast in ways you probably wouldn't normally cast them.

Yeah I'd say so.

I'm not saying it's bad, but you're doing a lot of things to get the extra bonus so it seems kind of fine. Squarely in the neat combo rather than cheesy abuse category, imo.

[NorrKnekten]

I guess its because I don't consider the companion feats and action cost part of the investment, As I said. You get a whole lot of other things out of having a companion and outside of the opportunity cost for the spell and companion-attack, The rest are things you would be doing otherwise.

But yeah I see the point.