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I thought I would move this here from another thread. i am not taking credit for coming up with this as i've read a bunch of things others have posted and kind of put it together in a way that I think would be cool and hopefully still balanced. I just thought what kind of things would I like to do? What would be cool?
I kind of like the idea of a magus that gives up spellstrike to lean into arcane cascade and spellcasting. i thought up some tradeoffs based on things others didnt like about spellstrike, recharging, and magus in general for the archtype based on what I think is cool.
I can choose lightning and swing away infusing each swing with more lighting from arcane cascade. Since they are not spellstriking more emphasis has to go into their normal strikes while in arcane cascade, they do this by getting free strikes from quickened slots and through crit effects depending on the element gained in arcane cascade (also providing them versatility by changing up elements, a reason for each element other than triggering weakness.)
-loses the spell strike feature and access to all spellstrike dependent feats and features like double spellstrike.
-Loses weapon specialization and greater WS
+ Gains arcane weapon specialization and greater arcane weapon specialization - while in arcane cascade stance gain the same damage bonuses weapon spec normally would have given as force damage or whichever other type you gained from arcane cascade. This is in addition to the benefits already given by arcane cascade now scaling with arcane weapon specialization and greater arcane ws instead of WS and greater WS. For example at level 1 arcane cascade provides 1 extra force damage, at 7 it gives 4 force damage, at 13 it gives 5 force damage, and at 15 it gives 9 force damage. This will matter as it interacts with feat choices for the archtype but this magus does not get normal WS.
+ Arcane cascade gains the following:
Can now be used as a free action after casting a slotted spell.
Level 5 arcane cascade provides an arcane crit effect based on the damage type gained.
Level I dont know but higher? An improvement to hybrid study benefit (designed by someone actually good at designing balanced pathfinder stuff. Any Ideas?)
+ Starting at level 1, Quickened spell slot feature with the following:
You gain a quickened spell slot that can be filled with any Magus spell you know. Spells cast from this slot allow you to strike as a free action. This slot is always the same rank of your highest spell slot. When your spell casting proficiency improves to expert you gain a second quickened slot at 1 rank lower than your highest slot and at master proficiency you gain a third slot 2 ranks lower than your highest slot. (there needed to be a gradient in rank because getting 3 top slots would let the magus rival wizards in top slots for the day.)
Also at 13 your studious spell slots act like quickened slots granting the free action strike.
Possible Feats for the archype:
Elemental attunement - Feat Leve1 4 - When gaining this feat the cascade adept selects one of the following damage types fire, electricity, cold, acid, poison, slashing(add Air trait), Bludgeoning(add earth trait) or bludgeoning(add wood trait). You can gain the selected element instead of force when activating arcane cascade. Would there be issues with the Air Wood or Earth trait options?
Cascading strikes - Feat level 6 - Focus spell 2 actions. Activates arcane cascade stance. Strikes for 1 minute while in arcane cascade stance also deal damage based on the bonus damage and type from arcane cascade to adjacent foes with a reflex save. This effect ends if you leave arcane cascade stance.
Critical success: no damage
Success: half damage
Failure: full damage
Critical failure: double damage and apply the arcane critical effect of arcane cascade.
Cascade Dispersal - Feat Level 8 - 1 action - Requirement, must be in arcane cascade stance. Release stored energy of arcane cascade sharing it with allies around you. Until the beginning of your next turn all allies in a 15 ft emanation gain your arcane cascade damage on the next strike (activities like swipe only add the damage to one target) or direct damaging spell on failure or crit failure (the damage is added once for the spell, fireball for example adds it for one target, damaging spell effects that are not immediate do not gain this damage bonus.)
Overwhelming Elemental Attunement - Feat level 12- When making a strike as part of casting a spell from a quickened spell slot the elemental damage from arcane cascade pierces through enemy resistances, ignoring an amount of damage resistance equal to your level for all additional damage gained from arcane cascade.
Shared Studious spell - Feat Level 14 spell shape- 1 action - the next spell cast from a studious spell slot with the range of touch can be shared with an adjacent ally. That ally also gains the effects of the spell cast in addition to the targeted creature. surestrike, shiftblame, and translocate seemed off to allow this for but would it be fine to allow sharing these?)
Arcane Echo - Feat Level 16 - 2 actions - must be in arcane cascade stance- An ecco of arcane energy erupts after hitting foes with your weapon or unarmed attack. Make a strike, regardless of result energy erupts from your weapon or unarmed attack in a 15 line. in addition to the target of the strike creatures in the line take damage equal to you your arcane cascade damage. Creatures besides the target of the strike make a reflex save with the following results. You can use this activity without a target for the strike producing the line effect. (this just seems cool but maybe its not a level 16 quality feat?)
Critical success: no damage
Success: half damage
Failure: full damage
Critical failure: double damage and apply the arcane critical effect of arcane cascade.
Always cascading - Feat Level 20 - You are a force of arcane energy capable of entering arcane cascade simply by drawing off arcane energy from your own being. you no longer need to cast a spell to use the 1 action arcane cascade stance. While in arcane cascade gain something else thats cool? not sure what that would be.
Basic Idea of the Archtype
This concept of magus is the opposite in terms of action economy. They can move around cast a spell putting them in arcane cascade and get in a strike. Its actually probably too much since its the equivalent of a 5 action turn as long as they have the slots. They never worry about using an action to recharge spellstrike too cause its not there.
Like a normal magus, this archtype is limited to master spellcasting and the same progression to it and without spellstrike can't get in spell attacks using strike accuracy. But they have more spells to cast and get more out of normal strikes with arcane cascade feat support. They can better support allies with studious spells and cascade dispersal. In their own way they still have the action compression of spellstrike but only gain it a few times a day rather than as often as normal magus can recharge spellstrike.
They can still get into arcane cascade using non slotted spells like a normal magus can. Like casting a spell from a staff they can use an action to enter it like normal.
There is not direct replacement for double spellstrike. Should this archtype get something to replace it?
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I personally quite like this idea. I don't know if it would still feel like a Magus by the end of it, but having a megabuffed Arcane Cascade for super-strong magical Strikes would definitely feel fun to play in my opinion, especially if you could change your damage types on the fly and adapt to an enemy's resistances and weaknesses. Definitely sounds like a fun space for a class archetype to explore.
I personally quite like this idea. I don't know if it would still feel like a Magus by the end of it, but having a megabuffed Arcane Cascade for super-strong magical Strikes would definitely feel fun to play in my opinion, especially if you could change your damage types on the fly and adapt to an enemy's resistances and weaknesses. Definitely sounds like a fun space for a class archetype to explore.
One of the things I remember you saying before was you wanted more utility and versatility.
I think if the arcane crit effects are done well it will give that but I do worry abit that about overtuning with them so I have been hesitant to write any down.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're right! As difficult as it is to make the Magus more versatile and utility-oriented when they're built around Spellstrike, taking that big action and its associated power out with a class archetype could be just the ticket for allowing them to do a variety of other different things, and shine at those too. If you want, go ahead with the arcane crit effects you had in mind and I'd be happy to give feedback: whether they're undertuned or overtuned, having an extra pair of eyes on it could help give you some extra opinions to work with.
Arcane cascade element based crit effects. These occur on a critical hit with a strike while in arcane cascade stance. The affect is determined by the element granted by arcane cascade.
Force - The impact of applying magical force to your strike is predictable, shoving the target back 5ft as forced movement.
Fire - Smoke billows from the impact of your strike in the space the foe occupies leaving those in the smoke dazzled and concealed for as long as they remain in the smoke. At the begining of your next turn the smoke moves in a random direction to an adjacent square or where the GM decides is appropriate. Wind effects can also displace or dissipate the smoke.
Electricity - static emits from your strike slowing the reaction time of your target. Until the beginning of the target's next turn they cannot use reactions. (purposefully their turn and not till your next turn. This is a stronger overall effect I think and needed a bit of tempering Also likely too much synergy with spellcasting but would be fun to get off)
Cold - Ice forms on the limbs and body of the target sniffling their use of them. The target becomes clumsy 1 as long as the ice remains. ! action can be used to break their limbs free of the ice. The ice melts naturally at the beginning of your next turn ending the condition.
Acid - Acrid fumes spray on your target resulting from your strike creating a noxious odor. The target must succeed on a Fortitude save against your spell DC or be sickened 1.
Poison - An intoxicating plume of gas emits from the point of contact affecting the targets mind. The target of the strike becomes fascinated momentarily and overly obsessed with taking you down, with a will save against your spell DC. On failure the affected creature must use their first action on their next turn to move toward you or to strike you. Other appropriate actions could be used with GM discretion.
Slashing(add Air trait) - strong winds buffet the space around your foe pushing another creature 5ft away from the target of your strike. The affected creature can instead choose to go prone avoiding the wind.
Bludgeoning(add earth trait) - as your strike connects the earthen sheath crushes to rubble on the ground leaving difficult terrain in all adjacent spaces to the target of the strike.
Bludgeoning(add wood trait) - vines burst out ready to grasp at anything in the space. the affected creature must succeed at a fort save against your spell DC or become grabbed, 1 action to break off the vines removes the effect. the vines wither and die at the beginning of your next turn ending the effect.
I like the imagery I gave to acid and cold and the effect i gave makes sense but Im not sure i like those effects all that much.
Also considering the cascade strikes buff at level 6 can trigger these effects on foes that crit fail the aoe affect of cascade strikes I might still need to temper these more than I did?
Also I didnt think of this when writing but with cascading strikes active.
Player rolls to strike and theres the aoe affect. All affected creatures besides the target roll a save. A crit on the strike applies the elemental crit effect. and the surounding crit fails also apply it.
Then some of these affects call for a roll to save. Maybe I should avoid save affects to cut down on rolls?
Also any input is welcome. Im not attached, I am more interested in collectively putting together a good idea.
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Swap fire and electricity, smoke fills their lungs as justification. I just think electricity makes more sense to dazzle than smoke.
Sonic could be a save against stupefy 1 until start of your next turn (though Stupefy is a bigger deal that may be too powerful)
Void could be a save against frightened condition
Vitality, no save, but as you co-mingle your life essence with theirs you gain insight into them, free RK check USING any to hit bonuses the attack was made with
Spirit? Hmm... +1 Circumstance bonus to the next attack against them as you mark their very soul.
Swap fire and electricity, smoke fills their lungs as justification. I just think electricity makes more sense to dazzle than smoke.
Sonic could be a save against stupefy 1 until start of your next turn (though Stupefy is a bigger deal that may be too powerful)
Void could be a save against frightened condition
Vitality, no save, but as you co-mingle your life essence with theirs you gain insight into them, free RK check USING any to hit bonuses the attack was made with
Spirit? Hmm... +1 Circumstance bonus to the next attack against them as you mark their very soul.
one thing I was worried about was giving them access to damage types they didn't already have in arcane cantrips. is that a fair consideration or should they get them all.
I might have missed some spells though.
Swap fire and electricity, smoke fills their lungs as justification. I just think electricity makes more sense to dazzle than smoke.
Sonic could be a save against stupefy 1 until start of your next turn (though Stupefy is a bigger deal that may be too powerful)
Void could be a save against frightened condition
Vitality, no save, but as you co-mingle your life essence with theirs you gain insight into them, free RK check USING any to hit bonuses the attack was made with
Spirit? Hmm... +1 Circumstance bonus to the next attack against them as you mark their very soul.
Right about the dazzled affect.
maybe its just mutual concealment from the smoke. That is more consistent with other smoke affects right?I guess I looked at Dazzled and thought that was the most concise effect to capture everything is concealed to you by the smoke.
From a balance perspective those effects look pretty fine, I'd say! Here's the criticism I have:
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From a balance perspective those effects look pretty fine, I'd say! Here's the criticism I have:
The fire effect could perhaps stand to be simplified to just one round, and could probably also be simplified to just making the target dazzled by smoke without having to track some independent object hanging around.
The acid effect I think would make more sense for poison, given that it's about sickening the target, whereas the poison effect would make more sense for mental damage. For acid, you could probably do something like make the target off-guard as the acid burns away their protection.
Not necessarily a criticism, but was there a specific reason behind making BPS crits specific to certain elements? The risk I see is if those damage types come from effects that had nothing to do with those elements, which would make them a little too specific, so I'd look to implement crit effects that could make more sense independently of element, like bleed damage for slashing or slowing the target with a Fort save for bludgeoning.
Wow I missed a few elements there that they can produce with cantrips already.
mental - daze
Void - Voidwarp
Water Trait - Spout
What does BPS stand for?
Edit. It came to me. Blud pierc slashing!
Oh ok. I looked at the cantrips to see what damaging elemental spells and damage types were available. Ones like air or wood can trigger an air or wood weakness respectively and get increased damage from it and but dont have their own damage type like fire or electricity do.
So i thought to keep to the elements with the damage types they get through cantrips already.
I guess i was going for the ability to use any element they already can do. I just missed a few of them.
If It would make sense to use force but with a trait like air/wood/water ect i would just so weapon damage types still matter.
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Taking in the suggestions so far (thanks Zoken44 and Teridax) here are some reworks of some of the elements and crit effects for the missing elements.
I didn't see any arcane cantrips for sound, vitality, or spirit damage so I left those out. I think it should stick to elements and damage types they can achieve already with cantrips.
Fire - Smoke billows from the impact of your strike in the space the foe occupies leaving those in the smoke are blind and hidden for as long as they remain in the smoke. At the beginning of your next turn the smoke dissipates and the effect ends. Wind effects can also displace or dissipate the smoke. (this might make more sense, using hidden this time to balance out the more powerful blind effect. This feels like kind of a 1 turn stasis unless the creature in the smoke uses an action to move out of it)
Acid - Bear with me on this one. Your strike leaves globs of acid on your foe's gear. If they have a weapon the globs make it precarious to grasp, they gain the success effect of disarm as they avoid grasping the acid globs. The target can use 1 action to shake off the globs of acid from all their gear and regrip to end the effect. Additionally as long as the globs of acid have not been shaken off the foe they suffer a 5ft movement penalty. The acid becomes inert at the beginning of your turn ending the effects.
Poison - Toxic fumes engulf the target of your strike creating a noxious odor. The target must succeed on a Fortitude save against your spell DC or be sickened 1.
Mental - Your strike becomes a point of connection between your mind and the target. The target of the strike becomes fascinated momentarily, overly obsessed with taking you down, with a will save against your spell DC. On failure the affected creature must use their first action on their next turn to move toward you or to strike you. Other appropriate actions could be used with GM discretion.
Void - When you strike the reach of the void follows like a deathly phantom of a hand grasping at your foes heart. The creature must save against your spell DC or become frightened 1.
Bludgeoning (add Water Trait) - Your strike is reinforced by a rush of water leaving the floor beneath them unnaturally slippery until the beginning of your next turn. Move actions leaving that space require an reflex save or balance check against your spell DC to avoid falling prone.
The capstone ability at level 20 addition after seeing these crit effects.
Always cascading - Feat Level 20 - You are a force of arcane energy capable of entering arcane cascade simply by drawing off arcane energy from your own being. you no longer need to cast a spell to use the 1 action arcane cascade stance. Whenever you enter arcane cascade you may select any of the listed elements instead of force. Your first strike after entering arcane cascade applies the additional elements critical effect on success or critical success.
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Your effect for fire/smoke makes more sense. Good idea.
I was thinking over all the different types because, well, Arcane Cascade, as you wrote it, is based off leveled spells (either in addition to or instead of cantrips). and they use the arcane spell list, and I while I don't have access to the full list right now, I have to image they would have access to all the various damage types through it. while they won't have as many spells that do spirit, mental, or vitality/void damage, I have to imagine they have a couple.
Not to mention trick magic item, and staves are things so...