It does say you can use recall knowledge with other skills that knowledges and lores, and I will be playing a charisma caster so off the bat I was trying to think of examples of what situations you might be able to use, say, diplomacy, intimidation, deception or performance for a recall knowledge? Can anyone think of any?
I’m just trying to get myself in the right headspace, so I’m collecting examples.
It uses using acrobatics to judge the skill of an acrobat… could you roll intimidation to see if someone had been intimidated?
Would you still use charisma for such a use or would it still be the intelligence bonus?
It does say you can use recall knowledge with other skills that knowledges and lores, and I will be playing a charisma caster so off the bat I was trying to think of examples of what situations you might be able to use, say, diplomacy, intimidation, deception or performance for a recall knowledge? Can anyone think of any?
Performance: Recalling about famous operas/plays/instruments/etc. Recalling about performance concepts (like music theory).
Deception: Recalling if you already told someone a given lie so you don't use it again. ;)
The other ones are more difficult because the most obvious things to recall knowledge about with them are largely covered by something else (like Society for Humanoid ancestries, which would include diplomatic customs and protocol). Players can often sell me on something like this with a good explanation but if the skill isn't well suited to it, I'd use a higher DC if I allowed it at all.
It uses using acrobatics to judge the skill of an acrobat…
This isn't a Recall Knowledge action, since judging something isn't recalling a bit of knowledge. It's using the skill in another way and so it might feel similar, but Recall Knowledge is a specific action.
could you roll intimidation to see if someone had been intimidated?
Judging someone's reaction to something is generally Perception. I wouldn't allow Intimidate for that... though I also generally play it that if you succeed and they're not actively trying to hide their reaction, it's obvious (no check required). If they do try to conceal it, that would be Deception on their part.
Would you still use charisma for such a use or would it still be the intelligence bonus?
You'd still use Charisma since you're using the given skill, just like you use Wisdom to recall knowledge with Medicine/Nature/Religion.
Yeah, I can think of similar examples, like rating a performance, but can't see one (yet) that would use Charisma as the stat. Stepping back, how would one hold knowledge w/ one's charisma/presence/etc? Doesn't seem feasible. It'd mostly fall back on Int as you note, or perhaps Wis for things similar to Sense Motive, like telling if someone's Demoralized, or other knowledge derived from perceptive cues. So to rate a performance one might reference the norms and history of similar performances (Int) or base it on the auditorium's vibe (Wis)...but Cha? I guess you might compare it to how well you'd have done it?
Then there's the Thaumaturge w/ Esoteric Lore so metaphysically there's some validation for using Cha for knowledge, but that's such a specific case (which led to heavy argument during the playtest) that it doesn't provide enough support to build a case from.
Mind you, having the Cha skills + Cha makes a major impact already, being among the most important party/combat/NPC skills so maybe leave some room for the PCs with other mental stats. :-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The main Charisma activity to gain knowledge is the Diplomacy activity Gather Information. Talk to some townsfolk and ask them about local monsters before going to where the monsters dwell. This is great in the action economy because it uses no actions during combat. And advance information helps prepared casters decide on the best spells to prepare.
It does say you can use recall knowledge with other skills that knowledges and lores, and I will be playing a charisma caster so off the bat I was trying to think of examples of what situations you might be able to use, say, diplomacy, intimidation, deception or performance for a recall knowledge? Can anyone think of any?Performance: Recalling about famous operas/plays/instruments/etc. Recalling about performance concepts (like music theory).
Deception: Recalling if you already told someone a given lie so you don't use it again. ;)
The other ones are more difficult because the most obvious things to recall knowledge about with them are largely covered by something else (like Society for Humanoid ancestries, which would include diplomatic customs and protocol). Players can often sell me on something like this with a good explanation but if the skill isn't well suited to it, I'd use a higher DC if I allowed it at all.
It uses using acrobatics to judge the skill of an acrobat…This isn't a Recall Knowledge action, since judging something isn't recalling a bit of knowledge. It's using the skill in another way and so it might feel similar, but Recall Knowledge is a specific action.
could you roll intimidation to see if someone had been intimidated?Judging someone's reaction to something is generally Perception. I wouldn't allow Intimidate for that... though I also generally play it that if you succeed and they're not actively trying to hide their reaction, it's obvious (no check required). If they do try to conceal it, that would be Deception on their part.
Would you still use charisma for such a use or would it still be the intelligence bonus?You'd still use Charisma since you're using the given skill, just like you use Wisdom to recall knowledge with Medicine/Nature/Religion.
Religion.
“ Using an applicable Lore to Recall Knowledge about a topic, such as Engineering Lore instead of Crafting to find structural weaknesses in a bridge, typically comes with a lower DC. Your special interests can pay off! In some cases, you can get the GM's permission to use a different but related skill, usually against a higher DC than normal. The GM might allow checks to Recall Knowledge using other skills. For example, you might assess the skill of an acrobat using Acrobatics. If you're using a physical skill (like in this example), the GM will most likely have you use a mental modifier—typically Intelligence—instead of the skill's normal physical attribute modifier.”I used that example because it was in the text.
“ Using an applicable Lore to Recall Knowledge about a topic, such as Engineering Lore instead of Crafting to find structural weaknesses in a bridge, typically comes with a lower DC. Your special interests can pay off! In some cases, you can get the GM's permission to use a different but related skill, usually against a higher DC than normal. The GM might allow checks to Recall Knowledge using other skills. For example, you might assess the skill of an acrobat using Acrobatics. If you're using a physical skill (like in this example), the GM will most likely have you use a mental modifier—typically Intelligence—instead of the skill's normal physical attribute modifier.”
I used that example because it was in the text.
huh, so it is. That's an odd example since while it's a good use of the skill, it's not generally considered a recall knowledge. You're not remembering something, you're doing something.
Similar to how you can use Sailing Lore to operate a sailboat, which isn't a recall knowledge but is using the skill.
To consistently use Charisma for Recall Knowledge requires the thaumaturge base class for Esoteric Lore.
Most other skills used for Recall Knowledge are based on Int or Wis.
I don’t necessarily WANT to be able to use it consistently I just want to figure out what some of the opportunities might be so I can use them if they pop up.
Are you the player or GM in this scenario? Because if it's the former I wouldn't bother since your GM would likely be hard to convince anyway.
To consistently use Charisma for Recall Knowledge requires the thaumaturge base class for Esoteric Lore.
That was my thought here too. All the Thaumaturge characters reading this thread are grinning like fools right now.
if it's the former I wouldn't bother since your GM would likely be hard to convince anyway.
Which is fine. The difference between full build investment and barely invested at all is not a difference that is outweighed by the variance in the d20 die size. In general, doing things that you are 'just trained' in is reasonable. Spending a spare action on Recall Knowledge every now and then with Trained proficiency and a +0 attribute bonus may not have the greatest chances of success, but it isn't a complete waste of actions either.
Are you the player or GM in this scenario? Because if it's the former I wouldn't bother since your GM would likely be hard to convince anyway.
Actually I suspect he isn’t. He tends to like cool ideas. Been playing with him for, gosh' twenty plus years. If I pitch something interesting which isn’t cheesy and out in left field ..
Charisma is generally about personality, from reading the room to knowing which buttons to push to elicit desired reactions.
In terms of Recall Knowledge you could ask your GM to allow you to use CHA-based skills for asking about the strategies (& special abilities) of enemies, e.g. RK with Deception reveals whether an enemy uses sneak attacks, feints, precision weapons, or has special bonuses on attacking off-guard targets. RK Intimidation might work on the combat styles of STR-focused combatants – i.e. impressive greatsword-swingers and in general the kind of martials who look like they embody Intimidating Prowess. RK Diplomacy & Performance can give you information about leader & support type combatants – whether it's from your knowledge about organizing a team or leading a choir, you recognize those skills in others.
CHA-based skills could also be used to judge what kind of spells an enemy spellcaster might utilize, probably Diplomacy for support/divine casters [divine magic is about petitioning/negotiating with deities], Deception for debuff/occult casters [debuff/occult is about influencing the mind of opponents], Intimidation for offensive/primal casters [offense/primal is about raw power – "force of nature"], and Performance for all-rounders & others/arcane casters [jack of all trades tradition].