10 Reasons Why a Spellcasting Archetype is Good on a Thaumaturge and Not a Trap Option

[John R.]

I wrote this guide and would like to add this as a preface to my multiclassing section but I'd like to make sure I'm giving good advice and wanted to see if the other Pathfinder 2e forum regulars agreed or disagreed with this particular topic:

There’s been some talk recently that choosing a spellcasting archetype for a thaumaturge is a trap option.

The usual arguments are:

“You’re so strained with your action economy, you won’t be able to cast spells.”

“Your actions are always going to be ‘exploit vulnerability-stride-strike’. ”

“Even if you’re not going to be doing that exactly, there’s a bunch of other 3rd actions you’ll probably be taking like demoralize or trip or, later on, intensify vulnerability.”

“You should only be using spellcasting outside combat with your Scroll Esoterica!”

“Your offensive spellcasting isn’t going to be as good as a full spellcaster!”

I strongly disagree with all of these as valid reasons for the premise that a spellcasting archetype is bad for the thaumaturge. So, here are my reasons why those arguments are heavily flawed and why a spellcasting archetype is good choice for a thaumaturge:

1. It's Not an Issue for Other Martials The most glaring point: Look at other martial classes. You want to land sneak attack damage with your rogue? Guess what? You’ll probably need to move to line up a flank or even stride and then feint. You want to deal precision damage with your ranger? Better make sure you’ve designated that target as your prey. Need panache on your rapier wielding swashbuckler? That’s gonna cost you another action to set that up. Even a lot of the fighter’s neat attacks cost 2 actions. Magus is strained for actions considering spell strike is 2 actions and another action needs to be spent to recharge it and spellcasting is one of its core features! You know what’s common about all of those classes? Nobody says spellcasting archetypes are bad for those classes. It’s usually the opposite! Plenty of other martial classes have a strained action economy and no one is saying a spellcasting archetype for those is a trap option.

2. You're Built for Spellcasting You are a charisma based class that gets extra skill proficiency bumps in either arcana, nature, occultism or religion. The class is practically pushing you to archetype into sorcerer.

3. The Wand Implement The wand implement exists and fling magic costs 2 actions. Sure, it’s not great until you get it up to adept but saying you don’t have actions to cast spells is the same as saying the wand is a trap option because it costs 2 actions to use. The wand might not be the most popular implement but hardly anyone is calling it bad.

4. Spells are a Good Alternative Offense Speaking of the wand, you know one thing that the wand and a lot of offensive spells have in common? They target saves and therefore don’t suffer from MAP. If you’re already in your target’s face and make a strike, following up with a basic save spell is a great idea. Even better, sometimes striking is a bad idea. Sometimes you’re going to have an easier time landing a save targeting spell than hitting AC. As an 8 HP/level class, you’re often not safe to be in melee range all the time. And you are a recall knowledge master! Use that to learn an enemy’s lowest save and then target that save! Heck, AoE spells can collectively do more damage than 2 successful strikes and are arguably more reliable!

5. The Quickened Condition Since action economy is the central focus here, haste is a thing! Either from your own spellcasting or a party member’s, you are a prime target of the haste spell. Unless you are taking another archetype with multiple action attacks, which of course in this case you aren’t, the thaumaturge pretty much just has the basic strike and is behind on attack bonus. With MAP, you probably shouldn’t be striking more than once a turn anyway if you have the option of casting something like electric arc as well.

6. Stop Overusing Exploit Vulnerability For some reason people are making the case that you’ll be spending an action every turn for exploit vulnerability. WHY?! If your party is killing enemies so fast that you need to change your target every turn, you are wasting your time spending that action that way. Additionally, Sympathetic Vulnerabilities exists. That’s what it is for! I cannot think of more than 1 encounter off the top of my head where there were multiple enemies and there weren’t multiple copies of the same creature, usually teamed up with a leader. You should either be focusing down the leader or have Sympathetic Vulnerabilities so you can save your actions for other worthwhile things...like spellcasting.

7. Intensify Vulnerability is Useful...Sometimes Then there’s the additional excuse of intensify vulnerability. Sure, there are plenty of useful variations of this but they are limited to your exploit vulnerability target and are often situational. Only 2 of them seem worth spamming: the tome and weapon. Tome is just a better sure strike, I’ll grant you that. But the weapon gives you a +2 status bonus to attacks, limited to your target. You know what else gives you a +2 status bonus to attack AND saves AND skills? Heroism. Sure you need to be 16th level to get that +2 but even the +1 you’d have available to you at level 8 only requires a single casting that’s going to last you 10 minutes. Why bother spending an action every turn to give yourself +2 for a single attack against 1 target when you can spend 2 actions and be done with it for a more well-rounded bonus?

8. Most Spells are Reliable Regardless of Your Competency Worried you’re going to be -2 behind full spellcasters for most of your career? A big benefit of offensive spells is that they usually do SOMETHING even when the target successfully saves. Even then, buffs and utility spells exist.

9. Scroll Esoterica Isn't Always Enough Sure you might have a few free scrolls on hand but wouldn’t you rather have more options and uses granted by a spellcasting archetype instead of spending gold on scrolls for spells you expect to use regularly? If you really expect to only cast spells through scrolls outside of combat and have so much gold to buy all the scrolls, you may as well just use Trick Magic Item using all those extra magic tradition skill bumps you get. On top of that, you might NEED to use such a spell in combat. Now having a spell slot at the ready is more action efficient than having to pull out a scroll.

10. Your Party Will Appreciate it Having your own spells lightens the load on other spellcasters in the party and can fill gaps. Let the wizard cast fireball earlier instead of giving you or the fighter haste or heroism. Have a 2-action heal at the ready in case the cleric goes down.

[Powers128]

Considering that scroll thaumaturgy is one of the better first level options, I don't get why people would be arguing against casting in general.

I fully agree. When it comes to using your actions, you don't have to commit to just one thing or another. You use what's useful and having spells is useful for every class

[Finoan]

The only one I would look at more is #6.

Exploit Vulnerability is more than just turning on the additional weakness damage. If you don't have anyone targeted with Exploit Vulnerability, then things like Implement's Interruption and Amulet's Abeyance won't work. Some GMs rule that even with Sympathetic Vulnerabilities, those types of abilities that reference your 'target' of Exploit Vulnerability only apply to your initial primary target, not any duplicate enemies that would be getting the weakness applied from Sympathetic Vulnerabilities.

But in general, I agree. There is no reason that Thaumaturge would be a bad choice for taking a spellcasting archetype.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

Having a few utility spells can be a great boon for every martial character.
I loved unbound step psychic on my melee thaumaturge, as mobility was one weak point i had and the 1 action teleport helped immensly.
I had sure strike, albatross curse and wooden double as my occult spells.

Yes, the action economy is challenging as a thaumaturge, but more options are still good to have - you can't solve every situation with your standard rotation!

[Tridus]

I'm gonna be honest: I didn't know "spellcasting is a bad archetype on Thaumaturge" was a position people were taking. Psychic for things like Amp Guidance and Amp Warp Step are great options, and having access to spells is frequently useful for utility/buffs/etc. Oracle gives you other useful spells and handy Cursebound abilities, etc. There's a lot of spells that can be really helpful to a class like this.

I think you value #4 more than I do, since with delayed proficiency and the fact that a lot of Thaum's are MAD and won't fully max CHA out, attack spells will often not feel terribly effective. But it can work in the right circumstances.

[John R.]

Finoan wrote:

The only one I would look at more is #6.

Exploit Vulnerability is more than just turning on the additional weakness damage...

Good point but point 7 somewhat negates that point as well.

Tridus wrote:

I'm gonna be honest: I didn't know "spellcasting is a bad archetype on Thaumaturge" was a position people were taking.

Lately, it's been popping up occasionally on reddit and on a content creator's video about how the weakness of the thaumaturge class is action economy, therefore a spellcasting archetype is bad. I wanted to nip that in the bud a bit before it became a dominant idea and limited people's ideas of how you could build the class.

Tridus wrote:

I think you value #4 more than I do, since with delayed proficiency and the fact that a lot of Thaum's are MAD and won't fully max CHA out, attack spells will often not feel terribly effective. But it can work in the right circumstances.

I agree, by default, less than max charisma is probably practical if not optimal but in this case, I think max charisma is the ideal route while still allowing maxed attack stat and adequate defenses.

[Powers128]

I appreciate the wand rating in your guide too. It's definitely underrated. I've gotten some good use out of it. A 60ft reflex effect at base has its benefits over cantrips you can get through multiclassing. Then adept with its 120ft and easy access to persistent damage puts it in a really comfortable position for high charisma builds.

[Blue_frog]

The weakness of thaumaturge isn’t only action economy, it’s manipulate action - that makes the class borderline useless in fights with AOOs.

So getting spells you can fling at a distance when you get into this situation is a godsend.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

Blue_frog wrote:

The weakness of thaumaturge isn’t only action economy, it’s manipulate action - that makes the class borderline useless in fights with AOOs

It is certainly something you have to keep in mind, but as exploit vulnerability does not have a range you can (and should) do it outside of a creatures reach. Having reach yourself also helps, making asp coil and the like very attractive.

[shroudb]

Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:

Blue_frog wrote:

The weakness of thaumaturge isn’t only action economy, it’s manipulate action - that makes the class borderline useless in fights with AOOs

It is certainly something you have to keep in mind, but as exploit vulnerability does not have a range you can (and should) do it outside of a creatures reach. Having reach yourself also helps, making asp coil and the like very attractive.

It's more than Exploit. Like, 90% of the stuff you do has Manipulate. Even friggin Amulet Abeyance has Manipulate lol.

[Red Griffyn]

I think there are some legitimate counterpoints to many of your arguments (spoken as someone for which the thaumaturge is his favourite class). I'm not sure I've heard that caster archetypes are 'bad' for thaumaturge, but I certainly wouldn't take them for the same reason I do on other martials and IMO they only make sense if your there for a specific reason such as:

- Action economy compression (e.g., haste, amped guidance/blood vendetta reaction spells/focus spells, etc.)

- Specific out of combat buffs with longer duration so you don't waste actions in combat (e.g., heroism)

- Specific contingency/weakness coverage (e.g., see invisible, fly spell, etc.), however most of these can be addressed via items earlier than a caster MC.

- Some specific weird class synergy (e.g., cleric dreams domain spell gives scaling status bonus to CHA skills for even more skill monkeying).

However, I don't think there being 'things' to pull out of a caster archetype makes them 'good' necessarily or better than other options out there on an action tax heavy class. I don't think you've convincingly answered the issue of action economy on the class in your above post, and I don't think the other arguments hold a lot of weight for me so I'll post my rebuttal to your 10 points below:

1.) It's Not an Issue for Other Martials: The reasons I provided above are the same reasons I might take a caster archetype on another martial. However, there are more reasons I might take it on other classes with good action economy/compression vs. the thaumaturge. That includes:

- Classes that will be going into magus/spellshot/eldritch archer and need spell cannon fodder for spell striking (largely cantrips/focus spells).

- Classes that need more spell slots to round out their bounded caster chassis (i.e., magus/summoner have action compressions for casting spells but don't get many).

- There is a focus spell/spell who's benefit outweighs the significant early combat action tax of casting it BECAUSE the class has good action economy/compression (e.g., putting the new dragon domain spell on a ranged martial/one that has a flurry of blows type feature even from spirtual warrior/has a +2 to hit to make back the DPR lost from spending Actions 1/2 on combat casting a self buff spell). That certainly doesn't describe a thaumaturge.

- I'm building a counter class optimized build that will end up ignoring the majority of the classes design for funsies/because there is a niche manifestation that I think makes it funny/still good (e.g., pre-remaster magus using dragon claw from sorcerer/dragon disciple to never spell strike CAN work but it won't do more damage than the meta for the class).

- The class already gets accelerated caster DC progression (e.g., monk/ranger) and is well ahead of the progression vs. archetype (e.g., expert at L9 and master at L17 without investing any skill proficiency boosts and class feats vs. expert at L12 and L18). Combined with an action compression class like the monk you can routinely cast electric arc from a jolt coil + attacking twice (getting the extra damage boost on your attacks). The Thaumaturge doesn't have that action compression built into its class and has to go outside for it (e.g., spirit warrior).

So I would say your #1 is simply summarized as there are a lot less reasons why I would go caster on a thaumaturge vs. other martials who can do more with it.

2.) You're Built for Spellcasting: I get what you're saying with respect to the free skill boosts and they even come online at the right times to support the caster MCs, but I disagree holistically. Despite CHA being its key ability score, unless you're going to use a Class DC implement the thaumaturge never actually needs to boost CHA past 18. Starting 16 and ending 18 ensures that you get personal antithesis on all but a 1 on the dice for the entire game and last time I checked there was <20% of CR equivalent enemies that ever had a named weakness > your personal antithesis ability. Frankly this is the #1 misunderstood thing about this class. Martials want STR/DEX for attack/damage and DEX/CON/WIS for saves. So distributing a point into CHA will actively hurt your other ability scores progression, especially when you grab an apex item (its likely going to your attack stat, not CHA). The class has a delayed reflex save as well, so IMO a finesse/ranged thaumaturge going into a non-caster class like rogue/monk for a L12 reflex boost to master is also patching significant downsides to the class vs. going after spells from a caster.

3.) The Wand Implement:I don't know what to tell you but I thought the general opinion was that the wand was generally the worst or close to the worst option and can often be a trap option. It has the benefit over cantrips from a caster class in that it uses your Class DC vs. spell casting DC which as noted above progresses faster if you're taking class DC items and boosting it with APEX items than other options. IMO wand implement is at best a back-up ranged option for a STR melee martial or a toss out on a repeating weapon ranged thaumaturge that leaves STR at 0 and is using it for flatfooted at adept+ levels. But there are so many other implements that are significantly better (e.g., tome, regalia, mirror) that I can't ever fit it on a build unless I'm going out of my way to try as the parameters of the build (e.g., multiclassing into an alchemist so I can toss a debuff bomb that will drop their reflex save as 1 action to then BOOST my wand damage). But in that case I'm not taking a MC caster option. Honestly, I'm hoping the remaster brings the wand in line with other implements by making it compatible with exploit weakness or implement empowerment. As it stands it is often not a great option for the same reason spells aren't -> they don't really interact with your exploit weakness/implement empowerment class features so they end up being very anti-synergistic.

4.) Spells are a Good Alternative Offense: For all the 'are casters weak' threads posted throughout the life of this system, I don't think the average person is going to jump to signup to have even worse Spell DC than a caster to cast an under-leveled spell slot spell as some kind of 'holy grail' of thaumaturging. I know how good a jolt coil electric arc + 2 attacks can be on a monk, but that includes action compression and accuracy/damage boost riders from ki strike. On a class that hits so hard with no action compression, simply getting 2 attacks per turn with an agile weapon and maybe a bonus to hit will up your DPR more than casting a spell with a DC that is likely sporting a -2 DC, or worse, and that is 2 spell slots behind. Realistically what blaster caster guide out there is considering spell level - 2 slots as 'part of your daily endurance in blasting (none that I've seen). You'd have to put up some math and show me what situations you're talking about to be honest, and if it is just to clear out cannon fodder, I don't think that is a good expenditure of a spell slot vs. putting heroism on yourself or similair.

5. The Quickened Condition: Obviously I agree grabbing action compression is good from haste. However, your last sentence is very wrong. The class is only behind for 1/2 the levels AND that is why agile or similar attack boosting options are hyper important to the classes DPR. You have a massive static damage modifier (made even better with regalia or circumstance damage bonuses from other build options) so all you need to do it hit. That is why something like marshal's inspiring stance + and agile weapon is way better for you than tossing out a fireball willy nilly. You WANT action compression to reliably get off 2 attacks per turn, which is often why people don't recommend a caster (they don't provide that to a thaumaturge in any reliable/repeatable means).

6.) Stop Overusing Exploit Vulnerability: I generally agree it isn't always better to use exploit vulnerability vs. other options in every situation AND that sympathetic vulnerabilities is a basically must take feat. But this is again where the critique comes in that people don't generally like anti-synergistic options with classes. In some cases people can easily understand (e.g., arcane cascade is often worse than not using arcane cascade on a magus). However, in many instances exploit vulnerability can be better than that so what is 'the most optimized' in the moment isn't as clear. When in doubt most people will want to use their class feature instead of ignore it.

7.) Intensify Vulnerability is Useful...Sometimes: Don't have much here. I don't usually use IV because it is too action intensive IMO in a lot of instances.

8.) Most Spells are Reliable Regardless of Your Competency: So its -2 for many levels and can be worse if you aren't boosting CHA at every opportunity (which you don't need to do). The issue is that significantly increases monsters ability to crit succeed, which happens a lot in this game for the real threats you want to kill (i.e., CR = PL or higher). Obviously buffs are great, but usually you're waiting until at least L8 before you get a L3 slot and there is a buff worth casting like heroism. Even still I'd argue going bard is best so you can also pick up war drums or another CODA that has heroism on it to cast from your staff charges. Or something like psychic so you can have a reaction focus spell option ontop of heroism.

9.) Scroll Esoterica Isn't Always Enough: Again, this is a class DC vs. delayed spell DC kind of issue as well that you didn't highlight. But yeah, spells for utility/buffing aren't the real issue. Its whether spells as an offensive option are really worth it.

10. Your Party Will Appreciate it: I mostly agree, but of all the classes that has a PR Optics issue of eating other people's lunch, thaumaturge is basically at the top. So letting your casters do their thing might actually strategically better from a table/social etiquette point of view.

Overall: The thaumaturge has a number of weak points that need to be patched in a build, such as:

- Improved Action Economy via action compression/ranged attacks/reactions.
- Improved Attack Bonus via buffs/MAP augments/debuffs on enemies, etc.
- Improved MAD score allocation through leaving CHA at 18.
- Bad Reflex save scaling.
- Finding reliable ways to attack twice per round (basically action compression again).

It is often the case that a caster MC is not the BEST at providing those options. When it does provide those options it is often limited (e.g., low # of spell slots or up to 3 times a combat with focus points). When average people are not sure of the optimal maneuver they will lean into class features and shun anti-synergies that outright ignore class features like offensive spell casting vs. exploit vulnerability + attack twice.

For that reason, while spell caster MCs are not 'bad' they are often not the 'best' option for a thaumaturge at any given moment (in real terms and in terms of 'optics of what the best thing to do are for the average person'). When done by someone with low system mastery/knowledge it can turn into a trap option IMO, which is perhaps where you're seeing the sentiment crop up? In a free archetype game, L8+ caster archetypes can be decent pick-ups once you've patched some of the other weaknesses of the class. Otherwise a lot of ancestries have options to already pick up a CHA innate cantrip like electric arc, unless you think a 1/day L1 or L2 spell slot will be better than spirit guardian overwhelming combination, you're definitely better waiting IMO.

Other: Your guide needs some updating. Here are a few suggestions I think are worth calling out/updating:

- Ancestries: There is a lot to say here from picking a INT dumped ancestry to get more stat boosts to picking ancestries with unarmed RANGED attacks along with finesse options like leshy/ghoran/kitsune/sprite/automotons so you can switch hit without ever having implements leave your hands. Caustic Nectar is a significant improvement here since it can apply to any plant type ancestry and eventually you can get the Deadly Slashing Claws graft at L7 for a 1D6 finesse deadly d8. As well there are options like tengu's feather fan at L5 to make their innate spells key of Class DC vs. spell DC (so if all you want is a electric arc back-up its right there from L5 on-wards). As well getting finesse/agile/thrown weapons (i.e., the tamchkal chakram) can be very good off of human.

- Spirit Warrior for action compression and MAP bonus to hit. The L6 feat to share runes from handwarps to a weapon also means a ranged unarmed attack ancestry will have switch hitting options.

- Ostilli Host for what effectively becomes a 1 action damage versatile class DC electric arc option. Really only good on a free archetype game since its very feat hungry. But its one of the ways I tried to build into a wand CHA heavy thaumaturge that ignored exploit vulnerability/implement empowerment (not sure it performed that well TBH, but let me pick off lots of CHA/Class DC implements).

- Starlit Sentinel - basically adds a 1d4 ranged strike option to every melee weapon and can use STR to attack vs. DEX.

- Rivethune Emissary has an amazing dedication focus point spell to give you a +1/2/3 status bonus to a specific skill check (great for skill monkeys). It also has basically familiar feats and access to advanced domain spells at L10 if there was something there worth your while prior to L16 on a cleric MC.

- Cleric should mention some of the domain spells like dreams/knowledge which can make your skill monkey nature go even further.

- Rogue is SOLID for dread striker at L8 to facilitate demoralize at ranged to get both a -1 status penalty and flatfooted (and also another 1d6 from sneak attack). With the L5 reincarnated ridiculer feat you can keep doing this at to the same enemy and effectively have a better divine disharmony.

- Exemplar is amazing for shadow sheath since it adds more damage and removes the returning rune tax and has a MAP fix transcendence ability. Obviously the wreath that just gives a pass +1 status to hit is great.

- Psychic - you mentioned glimpse weakness, but didn't mention amped guidance from the same conscious mind which can give you a great reaction (especially if you've build a thaumaturge with no reaction implements).

- Ranged/thrown Thaumaturge option -> seems to be not well covered in your guide, but shadow sheath/returning rune from champion blade ally/quick draw via duelist (retrain to rogue/quickdraw at L4 with rogue) with a thrower's bandolier is the cheapest #1 way to get get action compression by removing the need to 'move').

- pre-remaster monk once you get flurry of blows should be blue. Attacking twice is more improving your chances of hitting once than triggering a weakness twice. With regalia, impelement empowerment, and potential circumstance bonus damage this is still good. Not great with the debuff now, but still worth considering if you're pre-remaster.

[Claxon]

Honestly I don't think I would have ever called a charisma based spell casting archetype a trap for a Thaumaturge, but with Scroll Thaumaturgy and enough interesting class feats (for me) and a general vision of my thaumaturges as being weapon users who dabble a little in magic I never desired to go into a casting archetype.

That said, if you want a more magic focused character and are willing to eschew some of the martial focus playing a with sorcerer dedication would probably be pretty good. But to the above posters point, it's not synergistic or "obviously good" and you have to ignore and downplay some of the class chassis that's given to you to really make use of it.

Which is fine if that's what you envision for your character.

I think a spellcasting archetype thaumaturge can be good, but you're building into something that isn't the "default" strengths of the class.

[SuperBidi]

A spellcasting archetype can't be a trap option. For an option to be a trap option it must somehow be misleading, which spellcasting archetypes are not.

Now, it's not a strong option. It doesn't really interact with the class.

I don't really see the point in bringing 10 arguments to justify it.