Design Intent


Rules Discussion

Grand Lodge

Was there any design intent behind giving what seems to be Weapon Specialization to low-level creatures / NPCs?

For Example: The Bandit stat block has them doing 1d6+5 damage with a machete, when their strength is +3. Is there something in the numbers that makes that necessary? Why up the NPC / creatures damage, when you limit PC damage to not getting that bump until 7th level, if they get it at all?

I just want to understand the design intent behind it... I mean you can stack the deck against the PCs easily, why do the monsters need that bump?


Lets begin with the obvious, NPCs and PCs are different and has different rules for them. NPCs don't add strength to their damage, nor do they have proficiencies. Those kinds of rules just gets into the way.

Instead there is a set amount of expected damage creatures are supposed to deal depending on their theme and level, This damage can be comparable to PC damage but for obvious reasons does not need to be like in the case of drakes which hit fast and hard or creatures which rely on nasty abilities to deal damage, So we cannot expect NPCs and Monsters to adhere to such rules and scaling.

In the case of a bandit, They are meant to be a creature which has a moderate or average strike damage for its level. The table suggests 1d8+4 or a total of 8 average. 1d8 obviously is not the correct damage die for a machete so they reduced the die size to instead add a flat +2. Keeping the bandits strike damage in the moderate category.

The entire chapter regarding building creatures explains this rather well. but This Segment is the one relevant for strike damage.

Grand Lodge

Thank you! This explains a lot! It gives much thought...


Also, NPCs tend to have a smoother progression in damage and get magical weapons later. Peaks and valleys, like when getting Weapon Specialization, are something to be aware of if using the PC classes to make NPCs. And of course, one's attack bonus matters too; most NPCs have higher attacks, i.e. like a Fighter's even if they more closely resemble a Rogue (or Wizard!), but less damage. The higher attacks let them remain threats when fighting higher level PCs and lessens the swinginess of having poor attack/awesome damage (esp. w/ crits).

Some brutes attack like Fighters w/ damage like a Fighter w/ Barb MCD & full set of expected damage Runes! That's where PC breadth/trickery/consumables & party tactics/debuffs/resilience have to compensate.


Looking at the Bandit from the NPC Core reveals more oddities than simply the weapon damage. For example, the Bandit has Dread Striker, a 4th-level rogue feat (or 6th level from the Butterfly Blade archetype). The Bandit might be part rogue, but it is only 2nd level. The Bandit has +9 to hit with a machete, but at 2nd level with STR +3, that would require expert proficiency in martial weapons.

The developers did discuss design intent occasionally during the PF2 public playtest in 2018, but I do not recall any discussion of NPC design. Nevertheless, I deduced their design principles over the years while studying the tactical design of PF2. The design principle here is that monsters and NPCs are designed to be easy for the GM to play. PF1 stat blocks often had a Combat Tactics section that explained how to play the creature in combat. PF2 stat blocks don't need that section, because their abilities telegraph their tactics.

The Bandit has Stealth +8, matching their Thievery +8 but higher than all their other skills. They have Forest Passage allowing them to run through bushes without slowdown. Another ability is named Bandit's Ambush, giving them a free Demoralize if they roll Deception or Stealth for initiative. Obviously, the Bandit is deliberately designed to hide in the forest, possibly waiting for wealthy travelers on a forest road, and then rush out in ambush. Furthermore, if their free Demoralize succeeds, their Dread Striker ability puts their victim off-guard to reduce the victim's AC.

The rogue Roshan in my Strength of Thousands campaign also has Dread Striker feat. And she is an expert in Athletics. And she can cast cantrips from her Eldritch Trickster rogue racket. She realized that in a campaign with a bunch of spellcasters (Strength of Thousands is set at the Magaambya School of Magic) she would be short on flanking partners. Therefore, Roshan has other ways to make enemies off-guard for her Sneak Attacks, such as tripping, grappling, and demoralize, in addition to the classic flanking. The Bandit has only flanking and demoralize. The easy-to-play feature of the NPCs mean that they lack the many options open to PCs.

Furthermore, the Bandit can Demoralize for one turn, and when the frightened condition wears off the next turn, they have only plain unadorned weapon Strikes. The ambush tactic lasts only one round, so it is more scary and flavorful than effective.

To have a fair fight against the versatile PCs with their spells and shield block and sneak attack, the bandits need to be especially good at ambush and especially good at weapon Strikes. So they have a Stealth and string of abilities for forest ambushes that leave their opponents temporarily off-guard, and they have high attack bonuses and damage on their weapon Strikes.

The creatures in PF2 put all their eggs into one basket, a metaphor for them being good at only two or three tactics (expect for dragons, who have more tactics). To compensate, they are very good at those two or three tactics.

My players often win by figuring out the only tactics that their opponents are good at and altering the battle to prevent the opponent from using them. Against an ambush of Bandits, my players' PCs who became frightened would retreat for one turn until the frightened condition wears off. That leaves the Bandits with plain weapon combat. A forest is nearby, so the elf Starlit-Span magus would climb a tree for a safe vantage for spellstrike archery. Roshan would trip and sneak attack anyone who tried climbing up after the magus. The bards would start their Courageous Anthem and Triple Times songs to buff the other party members to fight was well as the Bandits. They have many tricks up their sleeves.


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You should read the creature building section of GM Core if you want to understand the design intent of NPCs. In addition to what was already shared, monsters need to be competitive with a PC of that level. But if they used the same level appropriate items a PC needs to add damage, then the party would get insanely rich selling runes after clearing a whole bandit camp.

Also NPCs don't get weapon specialization, they just get "free" damage.


Captain Morgan wrote:

You should read the creature building section of GM Core if you want to understand the design intent of NPCs. In addition to what was already shared, monsters need to be competitive with a PC of that level. But if they used the same level appropriate items a PC needs to add damage, then the party would get insanely rich selling runes after clearing a whole bandit camp.

Also NPCs don't get weapon specialization, they just get "free" damage.

Essentially a summary of this.

Building Creatures/Strike Damage wrote:

Manufactured Weapons

As noted in Items, most creatures have less treasure than PCs, so those that rely on manufactured weapons are significantly weaker if you don't adjust the weapons' damage to compensate. The method for determining Strike damage abstracts the sources of damage, so you don't have to worry about adjusting the weapon's damage. If you do decide to calculate the weapon's damage, give your creature weapon specialization or greater weapon specialization much earlier than a PC would get it. You might also need to add sneak attack or similar abilities to make the creature deal more damage.


One funny side effect of this is that an 8th level NPC is almost always more skilled than an 8th level PC because the PC needs their equipment to hold their own vs. the NPC. Which is to say both of their numbers are competitive, but one side's kinda cheatin'. :-)


Skilled is a weird way of describing it but ultimately, yes.

NPCs can't carry the treasure expected of a PC of that level, Nor can most creatures even use equipment to begin with. And since PCs have their power constrained by expected behavior like proficiency and ability modifiers it makes sense that creatures just dont and thus follow smoother guidelines.

In the end "skill" is measured by the final modifier in any task so a level 5 fighter who put alot of skill into Diplomacy and Charisma may still be on level of diplomatic 'skill' as a level -1 landlord collecting rent.

And honestly, I wouldnt want it any other way. Exploding the treasure budget every single encounter against humanoid NPCs doesnt sound like a good fit in a fantasy game where the characters experience growth in levels. Does however fit in a post-apocalyptic game with no levels

Grand Lodge

I love this design discussion! Thank you all for your input! I will take a look at those sections to further understand!

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