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I find PF2E very confusing on some things and Dispel Magic is one of them. I find PF1E was so much easier.
So, here is the question. I have a 5th Level Sorcerous, she has Dispel Magic (Level 2 spell) But, it is a bloodline spell so it if I understand, can be heightened.
The other night, we encountered a Druid, who was basically Possessed by a Will-o-wisp. I wanted to try and force it from the druid and thought Dispel Magic (In PF1E that was totally legit) Looking at Dispel Magic is basically says use the Counter Spell rules. But this is where it got confusing.
Based on the chart, and all we read in the RB and on the internet, There was no way my Level 5 Sorcerous with an 18 CHR could even force it out of the Druid, and thus, the only way to defeat it was to, 1, Kill the Druid, or beat him to a pulp to unconsciousness and force him out.
This seems totally wrong. Because I said, in PF1E, and ever version of rules that PF was based on, you could defeat it with basically, Level+Ability Mod+Dice Roll vs the enemies DC+Modifier+Spell Level spell was cast at.
Help us figure this out as I know Dispel Magic will be coming up more.
This video explains it like I thought it worked, but I guess not?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9sijYMB0Ws&t=401s
Help Dispel the Confusion as this is just way to confusing
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So, if I understand this, the Will-o-wisp was level 7. As it had levels and not ranks, it would be a 3. In the attempts I made, I rolled an 18 the 1st time, and a a 16 the 2nd time.
Yeah, this chart and method is WAY more confusing that it really should be and it had everyone at the table confused, and I play with some very sharp minded people who are computer system admins, people with 4 degree's (Associates, 2 BA's and an MA) and another person who works in finance in a hospital.
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I'm in agreement with NorrKnekten, so I am basically saying the same thing but with different wording and focusing on different aspects.
When deciding whether you can Counteract something, the most important stat is Rank. And yes, there is a difference between Rank and Level. Rank is half Level rounded up.
Spells always have a Rank listed. Nothing else does. Everything else lists Level instead and has to be converted.
In your specifics, you didn't list what Level the Will-o-wisp is. But if you are level 5 I'm going to assume for the sake of the example that the enemy is level 6.
So that would equate to Rank 3. The Will-o-wisp is using an effect of Rank 3 to possess the Druid.
A success on a Counteract check will let you remove an effect up to +1 Rank from the effect you use. So if you only have Dispel Magic at Rank 2 (because it isn't a signature spell) you could try it anyway.
Now, if you did have Dispel Magic as a signature spell and could cast Rank 4 spells, then you could cast Dispel Magic at Rank 4. At that point your effect outranks the effect you are trying to end - which means that you only need to roll a failure on the check in order to end the effect.
As a last example, if the Will-o-wisp was actually level 7 and was using a Rank 4 effect to possess the Druid, and you either had to, or decided to cast Dispel Magic at Rank 2, then you would need a critical success on the check in order to end the effect. Best of luck on that.
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So, if I understand this, the Will-o-wisp was level 7. As it had levels and not ranks, it would be a 3.
It would actually be Rank 4. Half of 7 rounded up.
In the attempts I made, I rolled an 18 the 1st time, and a a 16 the 2nd time.
I don't see a Will-o-wisp creature at level 7 and the ones that I do see don't have a possession ability. So I am expecting that this is a custom built enemy for the campaign. Which is fine.
For a level 7 creature, the standard high DC typical for a spellcasting enemy would be 25.
Level 5 Sorcerer with +4 CHA and Trained in spell attack would be a counteract bonus of +11. So you should need a 14 on the d20 roll in order to succeed at the 25 and counteract the Rank 4 possession effect with your Rank 3 Dispel Magic.
Now, if you are using your Rank 2 Dispel Magic instead, then you would need to crit the roll. Which would only happen on a nat-20.
Yeah, this chart and method is WAY more confusing that it really should be and it had everyone at the table confused, and I play with some very sharp minded people who are computer system admins, people with 4 degree's (Associates, 2 BA's and an MA) and another person who works in finance in a hospital.
Yeah, it gets a bit confusing. It is a bit better now that the scale of Rank is consistent.
If the Dispel Magic isn't working given the numbers you posted in the thread here, I have some thoughts about where it is going wrong.
* You don't have Dispel Magic as a signature spell (only as a Bloodline spell) and are only casting it at Rank 2 against a Rank 4 effect. So you would need a critical success on the check, which you haven't gotten yet.
* The GM is not aware of the need to convert the creature's Level to Rank in order to do the counteract. A Rank 3 Dispel Magic won't dispel a Rank 7 effect. Like, at all. But if something is throwing around a Rank 7 effect, then it should be a level 13 creature at least - which you shouldn't be encountering at level 5.
* The GM isn't going to let Dispel Magic work and instead will only allow Rank 4 Clear Mind to work and isn't telling you that but is instead letting you waste spell slots.
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Ok, so I am level 5, with an 18 Chr. Dispel is a signature spell
From what the DM said, the Will-o-Wisp is DC7. He is running a PF2e module (Not sure which one it is, and he said he pulled it from there).
Not sure how even if Dispel Magic was not a signature spell, how or why you would even take it again, that seems like a waste, and really Nerfs things IMHO.
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Pretty much any time you are casting something that either: affects Hit Points (damage or healing), has the Incapacitation trait, or uses Counteract, then you are going to need to cast it from your top couple of available spell Ranks.
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Not sure how even if Dispel Magic was not a signature spell, how or why you would even take it again, that seems like a waste, and really Nerfs things IMHO.
Okay so. This entire, let's be real here, mess of a system is admittedly complicated and hard to grasp at first, but it does exist for important balance reasons.
Prepared casters are very versatile since they can decide what spells to take every day, but open themselves up to a lot of risk by needing to call that shot at the start of the day. Spontaneous casters need to commit a lot harder to what they'll be doing in general since they learn a fixed spell repertoire, but have a lot more freedom within the day on which of their spells to use. If they were able to freely up/downcast (i.e. Heighten) their spells, they would be too adaptable compared to prepared casters, so they're restricted to using any spell they learn at the precise spell rank they learned it.
To somewhat circumvent how unfun that is, there's multiple ways to deal with it, most notable is Signature Spells. Per each spell rank of spells you have learned, you can designate any one as your signature, which lets you freely heighten that spell to any rank that you have spell slots (or cast at a lower rank if you initially learned it at a higher rank than its base). Alternatively, you can simply learn a spell again at a higher rank, which isn't the worst choice (since every level you also get to freely change out one of your existing spells, in this case the lower rank one), especially if the spell in question only changes at specific breakpoints.
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The level-to-rank conversion is easier to understand if you compare it to the spell-ranks a full caster get:
At lvl 3, they get rank 2 spells
At lvl 5, they get rank 3 spells
At lvl 7, they get rank 4 spells
etc (lvl/2 rounded up)
Creatures with innate magic effects are treated as a spellcaster of that level (unless their stat block says something different)
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Note that as awkward as Counteracting can be at first (for me too, and I'm a math/DnD nerd), it's somewhat of a universal mechanic in PF2 for one effect vs. another effect. So it's worth learning, and underneath all the charts it's kinda simple (and I wish Paizo had given a formula or flow chart rather than a messy table, so people could see what to plug in where).
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Note that monsters printed before the remaster still refer to "counteract level", which has been renamed to "counteract rank", just as "spell level" was renamed to "spell rank". Some monsters list counteract ranks that are different from what their levels suggest, such as the infamous clay golem, which said "counteract level equal to its level". It's level is 10, so this mid-game monster's curse had the same counteract rank as a 10th rank spell slot. Arguments abound over whether this is an error or a holdover from when 1e casters could only remove it at 17th level.
The flow chart would be very short, wouldn't it? Smaller than the chart, somewhat analogous to the Success/Failure list, and demonstrating what's getting compared to what (as w/ DCs/ACs) rather than skipping to the answers without sharing the underlying principles. Imagine Strikes using a chart like...Ugh.
I included flow chart as an alternative to a formula which I'd have preferred because those have baggage.
(Fun fact (so I've heard), Stephen Hawking was told he'd lose X% of readers for every formula he included in A Brief History of Time, which led him to only include E=MC(squared) as a must-have.)
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The table is safe to ignore.
What I look at is the degree of success results.
Critical Success Counteract the target if its counteract rank is no more than 3 higher than your effect's counteract rank.
Success Counteract the target if its counteract rank is no more than 1 higher than your effect's counteract rank.
Failure Counteract the target if its counteract rank is lower than your effect's counteract rank.
Critical Failure You fail to counteract the target.
Or as NorrKnekten summarized: (Lower rank/+1/+3)
Other than that it is just a matter of knowing to convert everything to Rank scale and making the check.
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the infamous clay golem, which said "counteract level equal to its level". It's level is 10, so this mid-game monster's curse had the same counteract rank as a 10th rank spell slot. Arguments abound over whether this is an error or a holdover from when 1e casters could only remove it at 17th level.
It was kinda soft-confirmed as intentional. James confirmed that Vargouille's similar counteract level override is intentional.
I think the fact it is two simple steps presented as if complex enough to require a chart that's the problem. The chart interferes with rather than aids the comparison part because it's trying to include Levels too which makes a visual storm. Converting levels to Rank should be distinct step.
Roll this proficiency vs. X, PF2 standard mechanic CS/S/F/CF gives result.
Compare result + the number based on Rank (of the effect you're applying)
with the Rank of target effect to see if you Counteract or not.
Done.
Footnote: You may have to convert Level to Rank if no Rank is given, here's how...
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The tricky thing with PF2e casters is that any spell slots below their highest rank are meant to be much less useful than those of the highest rank. So the onus is on casters to prepare/Learn spells in those lower slots that don't become much less effective for being in those slots.
For instance, an unheightened rank 2 spell that counteracts, incapacitates, or mostly just does damage will likely be useless by the time you have rank 5 slots. But a rank 1 spell that gives a bonus to your Speed, a penalty to the enemy's checks and DCs, or the ability to survive any fall could stay decent for the whole game.
The Will Wisp was a Creature 7 was a Shadow Fey creation by the author, The spell was a CH save based innate ability similar to Dominate Monster with a DC 24
In the attempts I made, I rolled an 18 the 1st time, and a a 16 the 2nd time.
Assuming that those are the d20 values, not your final roll result. Which is a bit of an assumption here - those are also valid final roll results for a level 5 character.
But if those are the dice rolls then I would expect the final roll results to be 25 for the first check and 23 for the second. You would have succeeded on the first check and failed on the second. So if casting Dispel Magic with a Rank 3 slot against the Rank 4 creature ability, that first attempt should have succeeded. The second one would have failed, but shouldn't have been needed.
Now, if my assumption is wrong and you got a d20 roll of 11 the first time and 9 the second for a final check result of 18 and 16, then you would have failed the check both times and the domination effect would continue.