The question is this
Throw anything +Equipment Trick(shield) +Magic Trick (Shield) allows me to throw a shield and do damage.
Can you apply Empower Metamagic to the shield?
Would empowering the shield increase the damage done as there is now a variable to be effected by the metamagic?
Looks like it should work, but spending 4 feats and using a 3rd level spell to do that little damage is kind of pointless. Remember it does damage as an improvised weapon that would probably be 1d 4 x 1.5 for damage. Any 3rd level spell is going to do more damage. In fact, most 1st level spells will do more damage.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Looks like it should work, but spending 4 feats and using a 3rd level spell to do that little damage is kind of pointless. Remember it does damage as an improvised weapon that would probably be 1d 4 x 1.5 for damage. Any 3rd level spell is going to do more damage. In fact, most 1st level spells will do more damage. its probably going to be second level cause of traits but im trying to see how how versatile it is. (2d6+3+(1/4CL)x1.5 x number of attacks isn't a bad deal for 6 feats considering i get 2 of them from class.
⇝ throw anything feat You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
⇝ equipment trick feat Shield options (Hurl Shield (Throw Anything) but you could just get a throwing shield and avoid this feat merry-go-round.).
⇝ magic trick feat Shield option refers to using the Shield spell and not a mundane shield. Daylight and Floating Disk have some uses but Empower doesn't help. Force Equipment (Equipment Trick [shield]): You can use your shield spell with the Equipment Trick (shield) feat for the following tricks: Break Ground, Hurl Shield, Little Wall, Ricochet Shield, Shield Gag.
As the shield spell is being used as an improvised thrown weapon via Hurl Shield it does not rely on the spell effect doing damage, so IMO Empower has no effect. For Game Balance I can see saying "okay" as it is a costly use but I don't like the RAW repercussions.
⇝ Empower Spell Metamagic feat All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
It could be argued that shield spell (itself) having no variable effects gains no benefit ("nor are spells without random variables"). The feat gives the caster a unique effect. It is something your spellcaster should try out in downtime so you'll know how it works in combat (and you'll have your GMs decision).
Why bother with the equipment trick and throw anything? If you qualify for the force bash you don’t need to take equipment trick or throw anything. If you do and use the hurl shield to save the duration of the spell you do damage based on the equipment trick feat not the damage from force bash. Even using force bash the combination is still incredibly bad. Empower spell requires you to use a spell slot of two levels higher. That means you are using a 3rd level spell. That can be reduced to a 2nd level spell with magical lineage. Even without taking the equipment trick this still requires 5 feats, or 4 feats and a dip into a class that has proficiency in shields. It also requires you to take power attack with means you need a minimum of 13 STR.
Your calculations are also off. Force Bash does 1d8 + 1/per 3 caster levels (Max +5). It is also a standard action to attack meaning you can only get one attack per round. So, at 15th level you will be doing an average of 14.25 points of damage per round with empowered spell. This of course assumes you hit your target. Force bash is not a touch attack so goes against the targets full AC. Most classes that have shield on their spell list have ½ BAB with the magus getting ¾ BAB. If the target has spell resistance you also have to overcome that in addition to hitting them in the first place.
Considering the amount of resources you spent on this that is a really bad return on your investment.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Why bother with the equipment trick and throw anything? If you qualify for the force bash you don’t need to take equipment trick or throw anything. If you do and use the hurl shield to save the duration of the spell you do damage based on the equipment trick feat not the damage from force bash. Even using force bash the combination is still incredibly bad. Empower spell requires you to use a spell slot of two levels higher. That means you are using a 3rd level spell. That can be reduced to a 2nd level spell with magical lineage. Even without taking the equipment trick this still requires 5 feats, or 4 feats and a dip into a class that has proficiency in shields. It also requires you to take power attack with means you need a minimum of 13 STR.
Your calculations are also off. Force Bash does 1d8 + 1/per 3 caster levels (Max +5). It is also a standard action to attack meaning you can only get one attack per round. So, at 15th level you will be doing an average of 14.25 points of damage per round with empowered spell. This of course assumes you hit your target. Force bash is not a touch attack so goes against the targets full AC. Most classes that have shield on their spell list have ½ BAB with the magus getting ¾ BAB. If the target has spell resistance you also have to overcome that in addition to hitting them in the first place.
Considering the amount of resources you spent on this that is a really bad return on your investment.
Thats why you do hurl instead of forcebash
because hurl makes your shield an improvised weapon, you would do it based on size of the weapon in the case of the shield spell that is either 1d6 base damage in terms of a heavy shield or if you can convince your dm that its a towershield do to them having the same +4 ac bonus 1d8.
the shikigami feat tree increases the size of improvised weapons by 1 size for every feat, this gives you 2d6 or 2d8 for 2 feats.
you still add your str mod to damage because its thrown.
also because its based on BAB its not a standard action so you would get multiple instances of the empower every turn. so if this works and im not saying it does.
you could get (2d6+whatever bonuses)x1.5 4 times a round for a level 2 spell thanks to traits and 6 feats.
What class are you playing anyways? If you are using an alchemist, it will not work because extracts are not spells and you cannot apply metamagic feats to them.
The magic trick feat specifies that each use of Force Bash uses 1 minute of the duration but is a standard action. That makes it clear that it can be used again, equipment trick specifies that it is a ranged improvised weapon. That means it follows the rules for throw weapons, which do not return unless they have the returning property. I don’t see anything that is giving the spell the returning property so it can be used once and after that you no longer have the shield.
Another thing that prevents you from making multiple attacks is that unless you have quickdraw or the weapon specifies it counts as ammunition you only get 1 attack with a thrown weapon.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: What class are you playing anyways? If you are using an alchemist, it will not work because extracts are not spells and you cannot apply metamagic feats to them.
The magic trick feat specifies that each use of Force Bash uses 1 minute of the duration but is a standard action. That makes it clear that it can be used again, equipment trick specifies that it is a ranged improvised weapon. That means it follows the rules for throw weapons, which do not return unless they have the returning property. I don’t see anything that is giving the spell the returning property so it can be used once and after that you no longer have the shield.
Another thing that prevents you from making multiple attacks is that unless you have quickdraw or the weapon specifies it counts as ammunition you only get 1 attack with a thrown weapon.
Vigilante Warlock
this is for a challenge my group has where each of us needs to play vigliantes and i said i think i could build the fantastic four. This is for sue storm
Grimmota135 wrote: Vigilante Warlock
this is for a challenge my group has where each of us needs to play vigliantes and i said i think i could build the fantastic four. This is for sue storm
According to Heroes Champion system Sue would be a TK Energy Projector with invisible power effects. Like any old character, it has gone through phases depending upon the writer's needs. Due to frequent power use and the variability as to exactly what object can be created, PF/DnD is really not the system to do this in.
I'm going to suggest a sorceress, a psychic, or a kineticist(aether or void) with DnD 3.5 Spell Thematics feat (transparent {glass-like} object theme but obvious AoEs.) which will put you in theme and avoid the feat shenanigans. You can take 1-2 levels in vigilante. How the feat works with kineticist is a GM issue.
You will also need to ask your GM for Homebrew - Invisible Spell Metamagic feat (+1 for rays or non-mobile object conjurations and [force] effects, +2 for AoE, not applicable to other spells). That will let you do an invisible scorching ray(+1), grease(+1), stumble gap(+1), or fireball(+2). Spellcasting manifestations will still give away that you cast a spell.
You'll have to access force effects via feats/class abilities.
Azothath wrote: Grimmota135 wrote: Vigilante Warlock
this is for a challenge my group has where each of us needs to play vigliantes and i said i think i could build the fantastic four. This is for sue storm
According to Heroes Champion system Sue would be a TK Energy Projector with invisible power effects. Like any old character, it has gone through phases depending upon the writer's needs. Due to frequent power use and the variability as to exactly what object can be created, PF/DnD is really not the system to do this in.
I'm going to suggest a sorceress, a psychic, or a kineticist(aether or void) with DnD 3.5 Spell Thematics feat (transparent {glass-like} object theme but obvious AoEs.) which will put you in theme and avoid the feat shenanigans. You can take 1-2 levels in vigilante. How the feat works with kineticist is a GM issue.
You will also need to ask your GM for Homebrew - Invisible Spell Metamagic feat (+1 for rays or non-mobile object conjurations and [force] effects, +2 for AoE, not applicable to other spells). That will let you do an invisible scorching ray(+1), grease(+1), stumble gap(+1), or fireball(+2). Spellcasting manifestations will still give away that you cast a spell.
You'll have to access force effects via feats/class abilities. your not wrong but now that i have set myself to do it I think i have to try. Since the rest of the party will be vigilantes too I think that we are all gonna be rather underpowered.
Why are you using the vigilante class for the FF? The whole idea behind the vigilante class is a hidden identity. The identity of the FF is not hidden. In Hero System terms they have a public id, not a secret ID. Vigilante would be better suited to another group like the X-men.
The Thing has no way of hiding his identity and does not even try.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Why are you using the vigilante class for the FF? The whole idea behind the vigilante class is a hidden identity. The identity of the FF is not hidden. In Hero System terms they have a public id, not a secret ID. Vigilante would be better suited to another group like the X-men.
The Thing has no way of hiding his identity and does not even try.
Because that was the thought of the campaign. Everyone builds vigilantes and then I said I think I could build any marvel character with Vigilante. So far i have only had one problem and that was wolverine. Getting Fast healing early enough to be playable was very difficult.
That may be an interesting experiment in game theory but does not always work well in practice. If you really want to do this ignore this and just use the warlock's normal spells for damage. There are enough force spells on the list to make that a viable option. Use your feats to boost those spells instead of focusing everything on one trick. Things like toppling MM are going to work better.
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