Optional "subsystems" Reference Document?


Rules Discussion


Hi all,

My players are having a hard time keeping track of the options available to them that aren't part of their character (they can handle class, archetypes, actions). The biggest thing that comes to mind are the vast array of item types with special rules, but there's other things like camping, kingdom building, influence, etc. Is there a document that summarizes them or otherwise lists them in a way that is easy to reference the full rules by listing rulebook pages and such?

I am talking more about anything "optional" that goes beyond the things that a character can do. Things like Runes, Wands, Scrolls, Complex Crafting, Nature Crafting, Fulus, Grafts, Tattoos, Camping, Influence, Kingdom Building, Snares, etc.

Specially for new players, it's easy to miss all the options and make the mistake of not using something that is expected of them to take advantage of, but isn't really stated clearly anywhere for them. The biggest culprit of this I can find is runes. Turns out, the group of people who kept me from playing pf2e and said it sucked because it was too hard and identical to D&D anyways but just needlessly complicated, was a group that had no idea they should be using runes. They also didn't use actions like take cover, make a distraction, grapple or bon mot, but I've taken care to emphasise the importance of doing things other than stride, attack or cast during a turn for my new players, and we're having a blast.

Thanks and sorry for the rant near the end!


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I think you're conflating a few different kinds of options/actions/subsystems, and to be fair it can be pretty confusing because its a big game.

You can break these into a few categories:

1. Things every character can do basically anytime the situation comes up. This would be things like Step/Grapple/Trip/Use Items/etc. I know what I've done for players that struggle with all the options is give them a cheat sheet, which is an index card that lists off the ones their character is likely going to want to be able to do. Like, technically someone untrained in Intimidate can Demoralize, but there is almost never a reason why they'd want to do that because past level 1 its almost never going to work. So they don't really need to worry about it.

I made my own for each player, but there are some examples of these online you can find by searching for "pf2 cheat sheet". Here's an example of one.

2. Things a character needs a feat or class ability to do. This is something like Bon Mot, Snares, or anything else that requires a player to choose to gain the ability to do it. Frankly, most players don't need to know about these things. If a player takes one, THAT player needs to know about it. The other players, especially new ones, don't need to know about these and not trying to tell them will make everyone's life easier.

It's a big game, and its best when starting out to focus on what you need to know.

3. Items. As you saw, there's a lot of items. A player doesn't need to know how a Fulu works unless they either want to acquire one, or you give them one. I tend to not do that with new players, focusing on straightforward items like potions that are generally easy to explain, scrolls (easy for the spellcasters), and runes. Runes start off as effectively passive bonuses, so you get one, modify your character sheet, and you're done.

The GM can introduce these to players as they go, so the players won't have to know in advance that they should be seeking something out. When they find a +1 weapon potency rune, you can tell them what it does then. But before that point, they don't really need to know about it.

Kind of like how a video game will introduce mechanics as you play through the game, rather than trying to throw everything at you at once. :)

For things like "complex crafting" or "natural crafting"... don't use them at all with new players. This is complexity you don't need.

In terms of the items you do need (like runes), unfortunately I don't know of a good resource for that. But it wouldn't surprise me if it existed somewhere.

4. Subsystems that are situational. This is things like Influence and Chase subsystems. Players need to understand what they can do in these when they happen, and at no other time. The first time a chase happens, take a couple minutes to explain how a chase works and that they'll be rolling skills to try and catch up. Also encourage creative solutions. But unless you're actively doing a chasse scene, the chase rules are irrelevant and you don't need to know them.

5. Optional subsystems/rules. This is things like Camping/Kingdom Building/and other optional rules that you can choose to add but aren't part of the core game. Most of these I wouldn't use and thus no one has to understand them.

To be honest: many of these aren't well tested before release (if tested at all) and they often come with problems. The Kingdom Rules in particular are notoriously bad and require significant house rules to be playable. No one should invest any time into this at all unless you're specifically playing a campaign that wants to use them, and even then I'd consider if you really want to do it.

Camping was fine in my experience, but it also didn't really add much. It was a lot of work to track without much reward for that effort. My group learned it and did it for a while, then we effectively figured out the routine we were doing every time we camped and the whole thing became a waste of game time, so we stopped.

Some friendly advice: just because a rule/subsystem exists, doesn't mean you have to use it. PCs making a campsite for the night doesn't actually need a series of rules with actions and checks. If it's not particularly relevant to the story, just let them declare what they're doing and move on. This requires no rules at all and keeps the game moving.

If you do want a check but don't want to use a full system, use the table to calculate a DC, pick an appropriate skill, and let them roll for it.

This doesn't require the PCs to know any extra rules, is very easy for you to do on the fly, and also keeps the game moving. You can apply it to almost any situation, so it makes a quick "I don't know if there's a rule for this and don't want to stop the game to go find out" answer.


Excellent explanation, Tridus.

Tridus wrote:
In terms of the items you do need (like runes), unfortunately I don't know of a good resource for that. But it wouldn't surprise me if it existed somewhere.

For that, I use the Automatic Bonus Progression table. When not using the Automatic Bonus Progression variant rules, the table itself still shows when the various necessary bonus items are going to be expected to be had by the majority of player characters.

So, for example, at level 4 the table lists Devastating Attacks (two dice) - which is referring to the Striking Rune that is at that level. Players may find one or two as loot or pool their money to get one for the party early, but by level 4 most everyone who is at all interested in weapon attacks should have at least one by level 4.

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