Champion: Liberating Step

[Zulthrack]

So I have a question regarding Liberating Step (Player Core 2, Pg. 92) and I am asking how it works RAW not RAI.

Trigger An enemy damages, grabs, or restrains your ally, and both are in your champion’s aura.

You free an ally from restraint. If the trigger was an ally taking damage, the ally gains resistance to all damage against the triggering damage equal to 2 + your level. The ally can attempt to break free of effects grabbing, restraining, immobilizing, or paralyzing them. They either attempt a new save against one such effect that allows a save, or attempt to Escape from one effect as a free action. Whether or not it needed to escape, the ally can then Step as a free action if it's able to move.

Let us set the scene:

A Liberation Champion and a Fighter encounter a Giant Flytrap (Monster Core, Pg. 154) and all three are in the Champion's aura. The Fighter goes first and Strikes the Giant Flytrap with her greatsword, the Giant Flytrap in return uses its reaction:

Quick Capture [reaction] Trigger A creature hits or touches the flytrap Effect The flytrap makes a leaf Strike against the triggering creature. If it hits, the creature is grabbed in that leaf.

Lets say the leaf Strike hits and the Fighter becomes Grabbed by the Giant Flytrap.

Now as his reaction the Champion uses Liberating Step on the Fighter and here is where my question comes in.

If the Champion used his Liberating Step in response to the leaf Strike does the Fighter get both the resistance and a free action Escape attempt or just the resistance?

And if the Champion used Liberating Step in response to the Grab does the Fighter only get the free action Escape attempt or would she get resistance as well?

How is this handled RAW per the published rules?

[Baarogue]

Since Quick Capture says being grabbed is one of the consequences of a hit, you need not consider separate triggers. When the fighter was hit, and thus took damage, they were also grabbed. The Improved Grab that rides on a usual leaf Strike didn't even need to take place, though if the fighter immediately Escapes from Quick Capture's grappled because of Liberating Step some GMs might still consider the free action trigger to still be valid and use the Improved Grab

So the fighter in your scenario would get the resistance and be allowed an Escape attempt if it was triggered off the damage

If it was used on a normal (non-Quick Capture) leaf Strike w/Improved Grab, the damage and Improved Grab Grapple would be separate triggers. If Liberating Step is triggered off the damage in that scenario, the Grapple would not have yet taken place; and if Liberating Step was held until the Grapple, the resistance could not be applied because the Strike's damage would have already been resolved. They would only get the Escape attempt

[Ascalaphus]

Agree with Baarogue. The Quick Capture ability is a bit different than regular Grab/Improved Grab abilities.

Grab/Improved Grab trigger after a hit, and then then you can as a normal/free action try to grapple. Quick Capture on the other hand includes an automatically successful grapple as part of the strike's effect. Also relevant is that this is when the strike hits, so before even getting around to rolling damage.

Now, there are two triggers that you could use to use Liberating Step:
- the fighter becomes grabbed, which happens as soon as the hit result is announced
- the fighter takes damage, which happens after damage is rolled (so, later)

But one of them is a much better choice for the champion to use than the other.

If the champion reacts to the grab, the damage still happens, because we already know the hit happened. But he doesn't get resistance, because you only get the resistance if the trigger was taking damage.

On the other hand, if the champion reacts to the damage, then the fighter does get to try to Escape & move, because there's no "if the trigger was" clause limiting that. So this is a much better choice in this case.

[Errenor]

Baarogue wrote:

If it was used on a normal (non-Quick Capture) leaf Strike w/Improved Grab, the damage and Improved Grab Grapple would be separate triggers. If Liberating Step is triggered off the damage in that scenario, the Grapple would not have yet taken place; and if Liberating Step was held until the Grapple, the resistance could not be applied because the Strike's damage would have already been resolved. They would only get the Escape attempt

BTW what if the Strike&Grab target made a Step after champ reaction triggered by damage and turned out out of reach of Grab/Strike? Grab formally doesn't have requirement of being in reach (probably because normally such thing can't happen due to its trigger). Or does it?

[Baarogue]

Errenor wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

If it was used on a normal (non-Quick Capture) leaf Strike w/Improved Grab, the damage and Improved Grab Grapple would be separate triggers. If Liberating Step is triggered off the damage in that scenario, the Grapple would not have yet taken place; and if Liberating Step was held until the Grapple, the resistance could not be applied because the Strike's damage would have already been resolved. They would only get the Escape attempt

BTW what if the Strike&Grab target made a Step after champ reaction triggered by damage and turned out out of reach of Grab/Strike? Grab formally doesn't have requirement of being in reach (probably because normally such thing can't happen due to its trigger). Or does it?

Grab doesn't say they need to be in reach because that's already a requirement of Grapple

If we explore Ascalaphus's reading that the hit is a separate step from the damage, then I was incorrect and Improved Grab IS triggered before Liberating Step because of Improved Grab, etc.'s wording

"The monster can use Grab, Knockdown, or Push (as appropriate) as a free action triggered by a hit with its initial attack."
>triggered by a hit
not damage

So by that interpretation of the timing, Liberating Step could not be used before Improved Grab, but it would allow the resistance and Escape attempt for a normal leaf Strike + Improved Grab. And that would also mean the GM couldn't double-dip on Quick Capture because the timing for the Improved Grab would have passed once Liberating Step was triggered by the damage. I prefer that reading because it is less abusive and exploitable

[Ascalaphus]

With normal Grab, yeah, you could use Liberating Step after the damage, before the monster can take its next action to Grab, thus putting the ally out of reach.

Liberating Step is a pretty good reaction. It's not as obvious how good it is compared to say, Retributive Strike, but it's intended to be just as awesome. Working as intended :)

Baarogue makes some more good points about Improved Grab. It does mean that Liberating Step is still quite good against it, but that it doesn't completely foil it like it can foil the weaker ability. Again, looks like working as intended to me.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Liberating Step is a pretty good reaction. It's not as obvious how good it is compared to say, Retributive Strike, but it's intended to be just as awesome. Working as intended :)

I fully agree here. Starting out, it looked like the weakest of the (good) reactions, but the more experience i get the better it seems.

Never saw it in play though, so probably have to do one myself!

[NorrKnekten]

I have a Liberator Champion in a campaign i'm running. He has single handedly averted every single death that would've come from the cleric and bard being grabbed, restrained, engulfed or otherwise. Bard especially struggles with only trained fort at level 8.

Yes there is the problem that once it is used to mitigate damage it cannot be used if the creature has Grab/Improved Grab, even a step doesn't save if the creature has some extended reach like a certain floating fungi.

However If the ally is already grabbed and takes damage they get a free attempt to escape so honestly its such a good reaction that saves lives, Maybe even moreso than Grandeur or Redemption. They arent bad either imo, Just more situational or feat dependent.