How easy is it to climb/crawl along ceilings if you have a climb speed? Does it require any checks or other mechanics? Can it even be done? How should it be handled, RAW?
(Does it make any difference if your character is a giant awakened spider?)
Untrained-- ladder, steep slope, low-branched tree
Trained-- rigging, rope, typical tree
Expert-- wall with small handholds and footholds
Master-- ceiling with handholds and footholds, rock wall
Legendary-- smooth surface
Well, it appears that might considered a Legendary level feat of Climbing.
It also seems that a Climb Speed is not a magic bullet here.
You might still have to attempt Athletics checks to Climb in hazardous conditions, to Climb extremely difficult surfaces, or to cross horizontal planes such as ceilings. You can also choose to roll an Athletics check to Climb rather than accept an automatic success in hopes of getting a critical success. Your climb Speed grants you a +4 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks to Climb.
I think the way I'd handle this is to rewrite the rule that a climb Speed is just a +4 to the check, that's waaay too little impact.
I'd say that a climb Speed would allow one to rank down the difficulty, I'm hesitating a bit, but I think down-grading the difficulty by 2 proficiency ranks makes the best outcome. And if the task reaches untrained while you have a climb Speed, you can skip the check.
For clarity, any climb task that would fit into the Expert level would be automatic if you have a climb Speed, but a Master task would need a check at the Trained level, and that full-ceiling Legendary scuttle would be an Expert difficulty check.
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Notably, this set point means that a PC's investment into Athletics will still be super relevant. An unathletic, forever-Trained mage can still get away with the Trained difficulty checks as the Lvls go up, but they might hesitate even when facing an Expert level check.
Meanwhile, a STR, Athletics-first PC will be crawling everywhere w/o a second thought.
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You might still have to attempt Athletics checks to Climb in hazardous conditions, to Climb extremely difficult surfaces, or to cross horizontal planes such as ceilings. You can also choose to roll an Athletics check to Climb rather than accept an automatic success in hopes of getting a critical success. Your climb Speed grants you a +4 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks to Climb.I think the way I'd handle this is to rewrite the rule that a climb Speed is just a +4 to the check, that's waaay too little impact.
That is already not the entire rule. No rewriting is needed.
the surface is extremely difficult, is a horizontal plane like a ceiling, or you are climbing in hazardous conditions, then a climb speed may not be an automatic movement that doesn't require a check - and instead will provide a +4 bonus to the required Athletics check.
If that type of extreme difficulty climb task is not the case, then use the rules for having a climb speed
A climb Speed allows you to move up or down inclines and vertical surfaces. Most creatures need to succeed at Athletics checks to Climb, but if you have a climb Speed, you automatically succeed and move up to your climb Speed instead of the listed distance.
...yes? I was not attempting to present incorrect rules, nor do I think my post seems misleading on the re-read.
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IMO, going from "automatic, don't worry about it" to "that's a Legendary difficulty check, here's a +4, good luck not dying!" is absurd and worth changing.
Climbing DC is especially important to get right because the consequences for falling are so harsh. A fallen PC ends up somewhere they don't want to be, and will most likely take significant damage while being sent Prone. If we agree that most play happens below L10, that means that those Master/Legend checks are going to be serious tasks most of the time.
A single failed jumped, followed by some failed climbing, was the only time I've ever seen a single roll directly cause the death of a PC (that was not a foe-imposed save-or-die moment like Never Mind).
If climbing w/ a climb Speed flip-flops between "auto-success" and "Master+ check" then I don't think I'd ever plan a PC around that action.
Introducing that kind of risk, for an already niche tactic, is (rightly) why I have never once seen a PC Climb when they had an alternative, in and even outside of combat.
Just this last weekend my spider ghoul climbed on top of a cave entrance with a net, ready to spring it on the enemies that my fellow party members lured out of the cave.
The game before that, my spider sneak climbed up and over a cliff under cover of brush to attack several snipers from behind. (I kept climbing up the slope behind them and ended up dropping a landslide of boulders on their heads. The only survivor ended up landing at my party's waiting feet.)
I like what I can accomplish with my Climb speed. Once I get Tunneling Claws, my mobility options are going to be obscene.
I should have probably specified that I've mostly played pf2 with APs.
Home settings / adventures are much more likely to have that pseudo-encounter mode moments of play that lends itself a lot more of those mini-plan moments, like asking your party to lure something outside into a trap.
In an AP on a battle map, I don't think that kind of ask would go over well for me.
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For your climb-happy ghoul specifically, beware the detail that default burrow speeds are dirt/earth only, and cannot work on most floors.
I super recommend mixing a burrow speed with some tricks to get past the last barrier (like a hardwood floor atop dirt). I've got the R2 spell Allfood categorized for that exact purpose; it enables one to turn anything into chewy edible material, and doubles the bulk per R heightened.
It's a slow 1 min cast, but a fun and flavorful way to get past those last few inches of non-earth material.
Edit: Uhhhhh, wow, I'll leave that up for other readers interested in burrow shenanigans, but I had no idea that ghoul PCs got a free pass to both burrow through stone, and to leave navigable tunnels. That's a great feat.
Uhhhhh, wow, I'll leave that up for other readers interested in burrow shenanigans, but I had no idea that ghoul PCs got a free pass to both burrow through stone, and to leave navigable tunnels. That's a great feat.
Yeah. I'm kinda hoping the GM rules that it can't be used on worked stone. Otherwise, it's WAY broken in most published APs.
Good thing it's an AP feat and so extremely easy to never even allow. Not that it would be always disruptive for a high-level play (maybe actually not...), but it could I suppose.Uhhhhh, wow, I'll leave that up for other readers interested in burrow shenanigans, but I had no idea that ghoul PCs got a free pass to both burrow through stone, and to leave navigable tunnels. That's a great feat.Yeah. I'm kinda hoping the GM rules that it can't be used on worked stone. Otherwise, it's WAY broken in most published APs.
Care to guess which AP I happen to be playing in? :P
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...yes? I was not attempting to present incorrect rules, nor do I think my post seems misleading on the re-read.
Well...
I think the way I'd handle this is to rewrite the rule that a climb Speed is just a +4 to the check, that's waaay too little impact.
A climb speed is a lot more than just a +4 to the check.
There are entire paragraphs about what a climb speed does that were not mentioned. So it felt like you were just jumping straight into houserules.
A climb speed gives a +4 to a climb check only if it is determined by the GM that the climbing task is too difficult to be done automatically with a climb speed. Which is a very high bar. Climbing on the ceiling or a completely smooth vertical surface are the examples given.
And what I am expecting is that this is so that players who put no further investment into the ability to climb other than getting a climb speed aren't able to trivialize challenges. So I don't think it needs buffed. It is already automatic success for most anything that is going to come up that the player wants to do. The only things that it won't be auto success for are either things that the GM has brewed up specifically as a challenge to the party, or complete shenanigans that the player is trying to get away with that the GM is wanting to shut down. Otherwise the GM is just going to let the climb speed be successful.
Just this last weekend my spider ghoul . . .The game before that, my spider sneak . . .What are a “spider ghoul” and a “spider sneak”?
A spider ghoul is a spider that is also a ghoul; in this case, an awakened giant spider ghoul rogue.
"Spider sneak" isn't anything in this context, but a "spider sneak climbing" is simply a spider that happens to be climbing and sneaking at the same time.
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A spider ghoul is a spider that is also a ghoul; in this case, an awakened giant spider ghoul rogue.
Well that’s a wild idea. Awesome!
"Spider sneak" isn't anything in this context, but a "spider sneak climbing" is simply a spider that happens to be climbing and sneaking at the same time.
Yeah, I got mired in syntax confusion. I read “sneak” as a noun.