| JamesWTGames |
Alright so I’m dming my first PF1e game and all my players are new to the system. I asked what kind of character my players wanted to play and helped them build something that would work with what they wanted to play. But as for 1 particular player in my group there’s certain things with his build that I’m not 100% sure how they interact with each other. They’re all at lv1 but this is more so me asking how this all interacts at _LATER_ levels so I’m not misleading him. So as a primer before we start:
I am using “Elephant in the Room” to reduce initial feat taxes.
I am using “Auto advancing feats” IE if you take a style feat chain, when you gain the BAB/skill ranks of the requirements of later feats in the chain you gain them without having to spend a feat on them.
For things like ‘Powerful/Deft Maneuvers’ from EitR the player chooses 1 option from the available which they will acquire the ‘Greater’ version of the CM when they reach the other prereqs for it. If they want multiple they have to spend additional feats as appropriate on them.
I am permitting players to take ‘Major Drawbacks’ from Rogue Genius Games on the d20pfsrd to take additional feats at CC. (3 out of my 5 players did this, this being one of them)
All NPCs also get access to the above, and the players are aware of this.
The player is playing a Large MoMS Sohei Monk. (Assume either Undersized mount, or that he’ll eventually get a Huge or larger mount of some kind, the mount isn’t important for what I’m asking)
If he takes ‘Modified Weapon Proficiency’ (Lances) or ‘weapon Adept’ (Versatile Design) and grabs a Versatile Design (Monk) lance can he use the ‘ascetic style’ feat line with it?
“Ascetic strike’ then would allow him to treat that lance’s damage as if his character lv was 4 levels lower. If the above is correct?
From what I’ve seen due to being a Sohei, “Monks Robes” do nothing to affect Ascetic Style’s feat chain, but would increase his AC bonus by 1? Or can I get some more clarification on this?
(I have a rather good grasp on what the Ascetic Style chain does, but I haven’t found a good concise explanation on how a Monk’s Robes effects it)
In order to use “Ascetic Style” with this lance and say “Hamatulatsu” on it at the same time do you have to take the WF feat twice to get both, or does ‘Ascetic Style’s effect cancel needing WF (unarmed) for Hamatulatsu?
(Hamatulatsu was the only feat I could find that gave alternate damage types that augment US that weren’t ‘style’ feats, and all of the style feats that did didn’t really do what they were looking for, if there is a feat I missed do inform me!)
If the above is possible, this allows the lance to do Bludgeoning damage at no penalty, correct? Which means you could use it with Cudgeler style, correct?
(All this realistically does is save him a +2 bonus on either the lance/AoMF for the Impact enchantment)
Since from a forum post I saw, if this let’s us use a Lance with Ascetic Style, then we can use stuff like an AoMF and Greater Magic Fang on it correct?
Then again the PC will end up having a _crazy_ high UMD later so would a wand of lead blades not be cheaper and more efficient means of gaining a pseudo size increase for his weapon, or is there an even better option?
(he took Dangerously Curious as one of his traits so UMD is a CS, there’s a Halcyon druid in the party who is adamant about wanting to be the party’s crafter)
Also if anyone’s curious about party comp:
Toxicant Alchemist (who nearly killed himself from fumbling a bomb on the first turn of combat rolling dmg equal to his hp that landed on himself.)
Halcyon Druid
Sohei MoMs Monk
Vanilla Hunter w/ Warcat Acom.
Iroran Tempered Champion Paladin
| I grok do u |
Just a couple of quick observations.
First a nitpick that Sohei and MoMS both alter bonus feats, so are strictly RAW not stackable; although, since Sohei only allows mounted feats, and that impinges on more style feats, and is probably okay to waive.
Second, sohei does not have increasing US dmg, so monk's robe won't help with damage. It will boost his AC, unless he is using the sohei proficiency to wear light armor, in which case the robe has no effect.
I think otherwise the styles and feats are working as you stated.
| Tom Sampson |
Question 1: If he takes ‘Modified Weapon Proficiency’ (Lances) or ‘weapon Adept’ (Versatile Design) and grabs a Versatile Design (Monk) lance can he use the ‘ascetic style’ feat line with it?
Yes. Versatile design causes the lance to be counted as a member of the monk weapon group (note that this is not the same as having the Monk weapon property - versatile design does nothing for that) which makes it eligible for Ascetic Style.
Question 2: “Ascetic strike’ then would allow him to treat that lance’s damage as if his character lv was 4 levels lower. If the above is correct?
It lets him use the unarmed damage dice of a normal, non-archetyped monk 4 levels lower than his class. His class, even if it is a Monk archetype, has nothing to do with the damage dice from Ascetic Strike.
Question 3: From what I’ve seen due to being a Sohei, “Monks Robes” do nothing to affect Ascetic Style’s feat chain, but would increase his AC bonus by 1? Or can I get some more clarification on this?
Monk's Robe would indeed increase the AC bonus, unless the Sohei is equipping light armor (which removes the AC bonus). However, a Monk's AC bonus increases every 4 levels, so at levels 3, 7, 11, and 15, it would actually increase his AC by 2, not 1. As for whether Monk's Robes affect Ascetic Strike, that is a gray area you can expect table variation on, meaning that you should ask your GM. Since you are the GM, you get to decide. There is nothing in the text that would contradict that would contradict its use with Ascetic Strike so personally I would rule that a Monk's Robe simply adds 5 to your Monk level for the purposes of any Monk unarmed damage dice (even if you are a Ninja with the Unarmed Combat Mastery advanced ninja trick activating the robe's function through Use Magic Device), and as such I would rule that the robe does work with Ascetic Strike. But not every GM would agree, and there is no firm ruling on this. This is a bit of a rare case since Ascetic Style already lets you use the unarmed damage dice of your Monk's class levels, so Sohei is really the only Monk that is in this position and the Sohei typically does not bother to use Ascetic Style as it can already use versatile design with its weapon training feature to perform a flurry of blows.
Question 4: In order to use “Ascetic Style” with this lance and say “Hamatulatsu” on it at the same time do you have to take the WF feat twice to get both, or does ‘Ascetic Style’s effect cancel needing WF (unarmed) for Hamatulatsu?
Unfortunately, Ascetic Style does not make the Weapon Focus (lance) count as Weapon Focus (unarmed) so you would also need Weapon Focus (unarmed). And Ascetic Style would make the bonus from Weapon Focus (unarmed) also apply to your versatile design lance, but Weapon Focus feats do not stack, so 1 feat is in effect now totally useless. Personally, I would just houserule that if you somehow got more than 1 weapon focus feat for a different weapon to apply the same weapon, the benefits stack. Bear in mind, however, that as a special property of the Hamatulatsu feat, a Monk can take it as their 6th-level bonus feat, skipping the Weapon Focus prerequisite.
Question 5: If the above is possible, this allows the lance to do Bludgeoning damage at no penalty, correct?
Yes. Hamatulatsu explicitly lets you choose to do bludgeoning or piercing damage with your unarmed strikes and Ascetic Style causes that to apply to your lance. You could also have just gotten the Weapon Versatility feat for that instead of going through all this effort, although you wouldn't get Hamatulatsu's benefit from critting with a piercing attack.
Question 6: Which means you could use it with Cudgeler style, correct? (All this realistically does is save him a +2 bonus on either the lance/AoMF for the Impact enchantment)
Yes, but only because a Master of Many Styles Monk can have multiple style active. Otherwise he would need the Weapon Style Mastery feat to activate both styles. And yes, this is an excessively involved way to save him a weapon property that costs a +2 bonus.
Question 7: Since from a forum post I saw, if this let’s us use a Lance with Ascetic Style, then we can use stuff like an AoMF and Greater Magic Fang on it correct?
Yes. Amulet of Mighty Fists and Greater Magic Fang would work with Ascetic Style as effects that augment unarmed strikes.
Incidentally, the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature reads "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." and as an effect that augments unarmed strikes it should work with Ascetic Style (and even if one were to rule otherwise, Ascetic Form would also enable it as a class ability that works with unarmed strikes). As such, his lance can now be treated as a natural weapon by spells and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons, meaning that instead of Cudgeler Style he could simply have his lance buffed with the Strong Jaw spell, allowing him to raise the damage dice by two steps instead (Cudgeler Style and Strong Jaw no longer stack, owing to a rules retcon in this FAQ).
By the way, he might be interested in Barracuda Style's Barracuda Dash to facilitate his Master of Many Styles Monk's lance charging build.
Bonus rules quandary: a nitpick that Sohei and MoMS both alter bonus feats, so are strictly RAW not stackable; although, since Sohei only allows mounted feats, and that impinges on more style feats, and is probably okay to waive.
This is actually a bit of a gray area that is up to the GM to decide. A precise reading of the Sohei archetype reveals that its Bonus Feats feature actually does not declare that it alters, modifies, or replaces the regular Monk bonus feats, so by strict RAW the Sohei's Bonus Feats feature would be considered an additional feature of the Sohei archetype, rendering the Sohei's Bonus Feats feature compatible with other archetypes that modify or replace the Monk's Bonus Feats. Not every GM will agree with this, however, although in the scheme of things combining these two archetypes is unlikely to produce a balance issue.
| JamesWTGames |
Thank you for your response on this Tom Sampson! I greatly appreciate it! Also didn't bring it up but basically so long as its not a class where it's bonus feats are tied directly to a class feature (like the BR or sorc bloodlines) when it comes to archetypes that 'alter' bonus feats of a class do not go ahead and mutually exclude archetypes from each other.
Also good idea on Barracuda dash, I wasn't even aware of that. That actually has substantially higher potential then again we legit just started so he's lv1. So it'll take some time before that's even viable, since it still requires lv7 under my ruleset due to the 7 acrobatics and swim ranks.
FYI I'm running Kingmaker and it has taken them 2 sessions to beat the bandits because they spent 2 hours of the first session trying to make a ludicrous plan to use the half barrel of oil to make a fire wall to dissuade the bandits from coming. Hopefully exploration goes better.
As for what you are referring to as the 'rules retcon' I have to ask could you previously stack multiple size increases? Or was there a rule that you could essentially stack a Su size increase (from a spell, or enchantment) and an EX size increase (IE like Brute Vigi)?
Honestly if that was true it might make the downsides of Brute Vigi make slightly more sense, though they are still extremely high. Brute Vigi as-written is pretty painful to play. Having to majorly clear some HB with your DM to make it playable.
| Tom Sampson |
You're welcome. And honestly, a lot of groups are more liberal about which archetypes they permit to stack.
Good luck with your Kingmaker campaign! I hope it goes well. I honestly haven't played it, but I have heard some iffy things about the kingdom-making rules there, so you might want to ask some experienced GMs if they have any advice on that front so as to be better prepared for anything that could interfere with the fun. I would recommend pointing out that you are a first-time DM also.
And to answer your question, you could not have stacked Brute vigilante with Enlarge Person before, no. Previously, the rule was that you could not stack effects that increase your character's size, but effects that increase your weapon's damage dice as though it were a larger size had nothing to do with that rule and stacked just fine, so you could have your animal companion use Improved Natural Attack, wear an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Impact property, and put a Strong Jaw buff on top of it, for instance, and increase the damage dice of a natural attack by 4 effective size increases total. The FAQ actually changed this rule by way of a retcon justification, so now if you were to have all 3 of those effects, you would still only get 2 effective size increases. (This, of course, assumes that you are actually following the FAQ, which is not always done in every instance, even by Paizo. Pathfinder sadly has messy rules here and there and sometimes the FAQ is used as a means of producing rules erratas through selective rules reinterpretations and sometimes those reinterpretations also have issues which are then ignored some or all of the time, even by Paizo... But at least the FAQ change on damage dice size increases is pretty straightforward and consistent.)
| JamesWTGames |
Oh I do agree with you. Personally if a single Ex and Su size increase stacked with each other imo it’d make sense, since one is being done through sheer skill, the other through arcane arts. Cause then it’d make areas of null magic not be debilitating for such combos.
Also most of the questions I have I’m running through the GM who brought me into PF1e since him and one of the players in that game are both very knowledgeable, though I tend to overwhelm them with questions at times. (We’re in Iron Gods in that group atm, still in module 1 at lv1 just got past the Kasatha skeletons, barely, my ratfolk gun chemist in essence nearly single handedly saved the entire party dodging 82/84 attacks made by them.) FYI the other two players are playing a half-orc shaman, and an android BB magus. Though the party’s luck is totally out of whack. Since the shaman has had maybe only 3 combat rolls that have been over a 12, and the magus _consistently_ ends up getting crit by enemies. Like every other encounter. Being a gun chemist means I can’t craft pots of CLW to heal them at lv1. The magus managing to pull her weight far better than the shaman.
I’m only like well versed in about half of Pf1e’s classes so far, so I definitely don’t consider myself an expert. I’m using Ultimate Campaign’s and Ultimate Rulership (or hope to) for the Kingdom Building yet that won’t be important until far later. They legit only just beat the bandits at Oleg’s like I said. (we meet up on Wednesday at 1600 hours Eastern time)