Allowing longbows from horseback with penalties


Homebrew and House Rules


As it stands right now, PF2E doesn't allow you to fire longbows (and composite longbows) while mounted; how imbalancing would it be to allow this but with a -2 penalty instead?

Sovereign Court

Well, there are a couple of points to consider.

* When you're mounted, you share MAP with your mount (PC1, p. 437), and bows are not agile. So you're probably using the mount more for mobility than for attacking.

* When mounted, the mount only moves if you Command it, even if it'd normally get an independent action (PC1, p. 437).

* However, when you Command it, it'll take two actions and can Move+Support or just Move+Move. Also, mounts typically have a good base speed. So a mount's single Move is about as fast as that of a character who's spent several feats/items on Speed. With a double Move, a mount can really outpace most opponents.

* The amount of free space matters a lot. Being really mobile only does something if there's somewhere to go. And the range of the longbow only matters if there are firing lines longer than 30 feet to begin with.

So about the least powerful situation for a mounted archer would be an indoor dungeon crawl where it's hard to get around the longbow's Volley trait, and if you actually move far away from enemies, there'll be walls in the way when you want to shoot.

The most powerful situation for a mounted archer would be riding a flying mount, or a mount on a vast wide open plain, where you can always use two mount-Move actions to stay far enough away from the enemy that they can't close in and melee attack you, but you can still attack them.

Another thing to consider is: what is the rest of the party doing? If one character wants to fight on a steppe map that's a lot bigger than the typical gaming table, and the rest of the party is melee and 30ft range spell focused, this might not work that well too.

... So. Under some circumstances, it'd be pretty powerful. But there are a lot of drawbacks. For many encounters, it won't be that powerful. If enemies can't get to just one PC, they can just harass the others instead. But once in a while it'll be gloriously powerful.

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Another thing is that this rule might just be a holdover from past editions that just kinda gets copied over each time. A bit like wizards and rogues had this really specific weapons list that's been more or less the same for the last thirty or forty years. If you compare all the points I just made about longbows to some of the long-range crossbows or even just a shortbow + ranger using Hunt Prey to not take penalties in second range increment, you can see that it might just be a legacy thing.


Quote:
When mounted, the mount only moves if you Command it, even if it'd normally get an independent action (PC1, p. 437).

Regarding the part in bold, the PC1 doesn't say it cant use its independent action? Where are you seeing this?

Sovereign Court

PC1 p. 437 wrote:

You must use the Command

an Animal action (page 242) to get your mount to spend its
actions. If you don’t, the animal wastes its actions.

So for example, if you had a mature animal companion, it normally gets an action even if you don't Command it. But the mounted combat rules specifically say that the mount will waste those actions if you're mounted and not Commanding it.

That rule's been in there since the start of PF2 (CRB, p. 478).

Basically, you're not supposed to get free movement without spending an action.


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Note, the daikyu in Player's Core 2 is effectively a composite longbow that can be used while mounted. The daikyu lacks the Deadly d10 and Volley traits but gains the Forceful trait and reduces the range increment from 100 ft to 80 ft.


I was aware of the daikyu as an option; I was more wondering what people thought about using conventional longbows while mounted. In recent years, various historians/entertainers have come out with evidence of historical use of the English longbow from horseback, and it troubled me that this wasn't something that could be represented in game. Supposedly, said horse archers circumvented their inability to properly pull their longbows not through an asymmetric grip but rather by simply not properly pulling their longbows; given that it's effectively using their longbows in an improvised manner, I figured the improvised weapon penalty (-2 in PF2E) would be appropriate. (I was going to add I'd make the same allowance for firing a daikyu on the righthand side while mounted, but it would seem that's a "legacy problem".) o.O

Cognates

Another option would be reducing the range (inc. range increments) of the longbow. That way, the fears about moving around without being at any real risk could be offset.


I wasn't even aware Longbow said it wasnt usable while mounted,

But yeah. I think the -2 penalty is fine considering that the daikyu is basically an advanced longbow to begin with. I actually think the daikyu might be stronger than the longbow with the right investment letting characters treat it as martial instead with more reliable output.

Not sure how relevant the above notion of mounted animal companions is, or even where it comes from. The game conventions says to default to general rules in chapter 8 unless an ability/feat/rule outside ch8 specifically tells you something else to override it. You already suffer -2 circ to reflex and share MAP for something that costs two feats.

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