How does Force Barrage interact with concealment?

[Christopher Mathieu]

The force barrage spell states it targets "a creature you can see" and "hits automatically".

Concealment states "While concealed, you can still be observed, but you're tougher to target. A creature that you're concealed from must succeed at a DC 5 flat check when targeting you with an attack, spell, or other effect. If the check fails, you aren't affected."

So is force barrage subject to the flat check? If so, is it rolled for each shard, or does a target only roll once for the entire spell?

[Finoan]

It is up to the table to decide which rule is more specific and would take precedence.

I would run it that the one spell (Force Barrage) takes precedence. So the shards all hit automatically. Concealment doesn't apply for that one spell.

[Sir Belmont the Valiant, II]

Specific trumps general.

The description of Concealment is a general statement of how it works.

The Force Barrage statement 'hits automatically' Trumps Concealment.

[Megistone]

A different interpretation is that concealment works when you target, and you have to target before you can hit. The force thing you fire is unerring, but you may be aiming at the wrong mark.

[SuperParkourio]

The language "automatically hits" is there to let you know that the absence of an attack roll or saving throw is 100% intentional. It doesn't do anything to overcome concealment.

[Lia Wynn]

I would agree that you still need to make the flat check. While I can see the other perspective when you cast Force Barrage at something you are still targeting it.

Hence, I agree with Megistone and SuperParkouio.

[Sir Belmont the Valiant, II]

An excerpt from FORCE BARRAGE
You fire a shard of solidified magic toward a creature that you
can see. It automatically hits and...

Concealed: Fog or similar obscuration makes you difficult to see and target.

Hidden: A creature you’re hidden from knows your location but can’t see
you.

Undetected: A creature you’re undetected by doesn’t know where you are.
.
.
All of the above have been copied from Player Core 1. You can see something Concealed, so it's auto hit. No flat check required.

You can't see someone Hidden or Undetected, so you can't even use Force Barrage.

[SuperParkourio]

Sir Belmont the Valiant, II wrote:

An excerpt from FORCE BARRAGE

You fire a shard of solidified magic toward a creature that you
can see. It automatically hits and...

Concealed: Fog or similar obscuration makes you difficult to see and target.

Hidden: A creature you’re hidden from knows your location but can’t see
you.

Undetected: A creature you’re undetected by doesn’t know where you are.
.
.
All of the above have been copied from Player Core 1. You can see something Concealed, so it's auto hit. No flat check required.

You can't see someone Hidden or Undetected, so you can't even use Force Barrage.

The phrase "automatically hits" doesn't have that kind of power. Acid Grip says the enemy is affected depending on the results of the target's Reflex save. Since it doesn't mention the result of a concealed flat check, we can ignore the flat check, right?

No, of course not. Concealed applies to every targeting effect except for area effects, and those few effects that ignore concealed actually tell you to ignore concealed. "Automatically hits" is just there to keep people from reading it and saying "Oh, they forgot to say what save it is. I'll just assume it's supposed to be a basic Reflex save."

If you fail the flat check with concealed, then the target is unaffected. No auto hit property of the spell can help with that.

[Sir Belmont the Valiant, II]

SuperParkourio wrote:

The phrase "automatically hits" doesn't have that kind of power.

It does.

Quote:

Acid Grip says the enemy is affected depending on the results of the target's Reflex save. Since it doesn't mention the result of a concealed flat check, we can ignore the flat check, right?

Wrong. Concealed is not mentioned in the description of Acid Grip as it is a condition/status applied to the target, regardless of melee/spell type. This is a general circumstance. The fact that Force Barrage says "automatically hits" is a _specific_ factor that applies only to that particular spell.

Once again, Specific trumps General.

[Guntermench]

SuperParkourio wrote:

Sir Belmont the Valiant, II wrote:

An excerpt from FORCE BARRAGE

You fire a shard of solidified magic toward a creature that you
can see. It automatically hits and...

Concealed: Fog or similar obscuration makes you difficult to see and target.

Hidden: A creature you’re hidden from knows your location but can’t see
you.

Undetected: A creature you’re undetected by doesn’t know where you are.
.
.
All of the above have been copied from Player Core 1. You can see something Concealed, so it's auto hit. No flat check required.

You can't see someone Hidden or Undetected, so you can't even use Force Barrage.

The phrase "automatically hits" doesn't have that kind of power. Acid Grip says the enemy is affected depending on the results of the target's Reflex save. Since it doesn't mention the result of a concealed flat check, we can ignore the flat check, right?

No, of course not. Concealed applies to every targeting effect except for area effects, and those few effects that ignore concealed actually tell you to ignore concealed. "Automatically hits" is just there to keep people from reading it and saying "Oh, they forgot to say what save it is. I'll just assume it's supposed to be a basic Reflex save."

If you fail the flat check with concealed, then the target is unaffected. No auto hit property of the spell can help with that.

"automatically hits a target you can see" does appear to beat concealed since concealed doesn't prevent you from being observed, aka seen.

Historically this has actually meant it auto hits in previous versions actually. Strictly speaking, you're correct because of how the targeting rules work, but logically it also makes sense that it autohits.

[SuperParkourio]

Automatically hitting is part of the effect of the spell, but if you fail to even target the enemy with the spell, you can't achieve the effect. Some spells circumvent this by saying they ignore concealment, and magic missile was such a spell in 1e. But 2e removed that language, taking that capability with it.

[Errenor]

SuperParkourio wrote:

Automatically hitting is part of the effect of the spell, but if you fail to even target the enemy with the spell, you can't achieve the effect. Some spells circumvent this by saying they ignore concealment, and magic missile was such a spell in 1e. But 2e removed that language, taking that capability with it.

I'm not sure I definitely agree, but I like your reasoning.

____
Also I don't want to invent exceptions where none are explicitly stated. And historical case doesn't matter to me, at least general rule on targeting is more important*.
Another thing is: 'you can see' is not well defined in the rules. Even 'hidden' can be counted as 'seen'. (Check Reactive Strike against hidden targets) So what, now Force Barrage autohits even against invisible targets? No way. (And no, I won't draw a distinction between invisible targets 'in plain view' and hidden targets behind cover just because in colloquial language invisible target can't be seen, and target behind barrier hypothetically could. Mechanically they are almost the same, at least in the moment)

* And I also like to mess with FB, admittedly. No guaranteed autohits now, mwahahaha!

[Guntermench]

SuperParkourio wrote:

Automatically hitting is part of the effect of the spell, but if you fail to even target the enemy with the spell, you can't achieve the effect. Some spells circumvent this by saying they ignore concealment, and magic missile was such a spell in 1e. But 2e removed that language, taking that capability with it.

By the rules as written yes.

However it really should have a custom targeting callout that it ignores concealment given you aren't actually aiming and it's just a homing missile. As the spell is written it's "can see enemy, hit enemy" and concealment doesn't prevent you from seeing them, just aiming accurately.

[SuperParkourio]

Homing missile? Nothing in the spell indicates that the shard has homing properties.

[thenobledrake]

Specific only trumps general when it is being specific about doing so.

Which means that not explicitly stating concealment does not apply is not specific enough to change the general rule that you make a flat check if your target is concealed from you.

The part of this debate which I always find interesting is that people are willing to bend the heck out of what "automatically hits" means in order to bypass concealment, but if the target is hidden/invisible they jump right on to twisting words so that "you can see" isn't take as literally as they want "automatically hits" to be.

[Guntermench]

SuperParkourio wrote:

Homing missile? Nothing in the spell indicates that the shard has homing properties.

How else exactly does it always hit then?

[Guntermench]

thenobledrake wrote:

Specific only trumps general when it is being specific about doing so.

Which means that not explicitly stating concealment does not apply is not specific enough to change the general rule that you make a flat check if your target is concealed from you.

The part of this debate which I always find interesting is that people are willing to bend the heck out of what "automatically hits" means in order to bypass concealment, but if the target is hidden/invisible they jump right on to twisting words so that "you can see" isn't take as literally as they want "automatically hits" to be.

Personally I'm perfectly fine with invisibility eliminating every "you can see" option.