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Question: For the sake of my theory, when Zon-Kuthon came back from the Dark Tapestry, he brought something back with him. What would he have brought back? A chunk of primordial Darkness or a chunk of primordial Shadow?
The Dark Tapestry sounds REALLY dark to me, so I could see him bringing back a chunk of Darkness which he could have used to spread some of over Nidal.
But his divine realm is on the Shadow Plane and it would seem to me that since so many of his adherents are shadow creatures, shadow lords, and the like that his affinity is with Shadow, not Darkness.
What would he have brought back with him then? Darkness or Shadow?
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Question: For the sake of my theory, when Zon-Kuthon came back from the Dark Tapestry, he brought something back with him. What would he have brought back? A chunk of primordial Darkness or a chunk of primordial Shadow?
The Dark Tapestry sounds REALLY dark to me, so I could see him bringing back a chunk of Darkness which he could have used to spread some of over Nidal.
But his divine realm is on the Shadow Plane and it would seem to me that since so many of his adherents are shadow creatures, shadow lords, and the like that his affinity is with Shadow, not Darkness.
What would he have brought back with him then? Darkness or Shadow?
Wait... didn't Zonny go beyond the multiverse? I thought he brought back an eldritch entity from outside the boundaries or reality (I think implied to be an evil entity surviving from the previous reality actually)
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Wait... didn't Zonny go beyond the multiverse? I thought he brought back an eldritch entity from outside the boundaries or reality (I think implied to be an evil entity surviving from the previous reality actually)
Pretty sure the Dark Tapestry is pretty much "beyond."
As I understand it, the Dark Tapestry is like the "Far Realm" in D&D. A place where the Outer Gods hold sway and where reality is quite different from Golarion's. Beyond beyond, if you will.
The Dark Tapestry can be observed to a degree. In The Dragon's Demand, the wizard would train his telescopes to a dark patch in the night time sky and make his observations. It is there that I am sure Dou-Bral went and returned from as Zon-Kuthon.
Pretty sure the Dark Tapestry is pretty much "beyond."
Wait... didn't Zonny go beyond the multiverse? I thought he brought back an eldritch entity from outside the boundaries or reality (I think implied to be an evil entity surviving from the previous reality actually)
It would be interesting if the Dark Tapestry had more than thematic links to the inter-cosmic medium that exists beyond the edges of the multiverse, but my knowledge of it suggests that it exists not only within the Great Beyond, but within the Universe, one of the inmost parts of the multiverse.
(Fair to say, the beings of the Dark Tapestry are heavily implied if not outright stated to be eldritch entities that were already there when the multiverse formed around them, but if one goes to the Dark Tapestry today, they remain firmly within the bounds of the Universe. Even if establishing some kind of direct connection between Tapestry and the "Outside" would further support the thematic similarities between qlippoths and the alien entities of the Tapestry...)
It’s the Dark Tapestry that corrupted him! The section about it in People of the Stars directly states that Dou-Bral was transformed into Zon-Kuthon there.
The Netherworld isn’t inherently corruptive. The various native beings like d’ziriaks and wayags are strange, but far from evil. In fact, Zon-Kuthon has corrupted it by his presence. With that in mind, the primordial state of the Netherworld/shadow is not one of evil, just of gloomy strangeness.
This thread is going off topic.
I don't know, "where did Zon-Kuthon actually go?" strikes me as highly pertinent to the question of "what did he bring back from there?"
Nevertheless, I'll come back to this in a moment...---
It’s the Dark Tapestry that corrupted him! The section about it in People of the Stars directly states that Dou-Bral was transformed into Zon-Kuthon there.
Oh, it most certainly does! Which is funny, because it seems like there is a conflict. The Windsong Testaments: On Family Bonds story from 2019 is quite explicit about the place Dou-Bral went being beyond the edges of reality:
Unknown to the gods or the faithful, Dou-Bral had not only abandoned his family and followers, but reality itself. He had traveled to the very depths of the Outer Rifts, pushing beyond borders held in fear by the most ancient dwellers in those unknown Abyssal depths, to emerge into the Beyond Beyond. And what he found there destroyed him. And what he found there reincarnated him. A cycle of death and rebirth taken place outside of the auspices of Pharasma herself, Dou-Bral ended and Zon-Kuthon began.
This is corroborated by his description in Player Core 2 and Gods & Magic. It could be an error, or it could be a sign that the "Beyond Beyond" is indeed connected to the Dark Tapestry in some tangible way.
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My question still stands unanswered.
Of the two possibilities I posed, which did Zon-Kuthon bring back? Primordial Darkness or Primordial Shadow?
Well, neither, his obsession with shadow and/or darkness feels like it could easily have come from his millennia in exile in the Netherworld. It's possible it came from whatever entity took over him from Beyond, but we don't really have any information about that.
Meanwhile, perhaps it would help if you could describe what the difference is in your theory between Darkness and Shadow? I'm not aware of any special distinction between those in this setting that would make the answer to your original question particularly meaningful.
... Or perhaps are you referring to the First Shadow which Abadar gave Zon-Kuthon from the First Vault as his trade for willingly going into exile? This could be described as a primordial shadow of a kind, although not in a way that disambiguates the parameters you've set forth.
My understanding is that Zon-Kuthon traveled through the darkness between stars to the edge of the entire universe, and contacted/was corrupted by something alien and horrible there. I don't necessarily think that thing loves shadow or darkness (or is from the Netherworld, for that matter), it just loves pain.
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My take on the Beyond Beyond vs the Dark Tapestry is that at a certain point, once you get far enough, it all blurs together. Outer Planes and Inner Planes dissolving into one another in the incomprehensible outer darkness where unspeakable things lurk.
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Not sure he brought it back with him, but I feel ZK is an example of what might happen to a god who forsakes his Inner Light, as the shadowcasters do.
And the Inner Light is the instinct for self-preservation.
In the OP, I didn't ask what he DID bring back with him. I asked what he WOULD have brought back with him?
Since there is no canon-specific answer to my question, I'm asking folks to speculate based on where he came back from.
My question presupposes that he actually DID bring one (a piece of Primordial Darkness) or the other (a piece of Primordial Shadow) back with him.
Which did he bring back do you think?
I can't make up my mind. On some days, I convince myself it is a piece of Darkness. On other days, it's a piece of Shadow. I'm looking for some help on this.
Thanks again.
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While I don't believe it's technically canon (since it's never been published), in a Paizocon Q&A session it was explained how Zon-Kuthon came about.
In the previous multiverse, Zon-Kuthon realized that he was going to be destroyed when it collapsed, so he sent his consciousness out beyond the multiverse, where it would be safe from the multiversal collapse. When the new multiverse began to expand and beings began to live in it again, this consciousness began calling out. Dou-Bral heard this call (I can't remember exactly, but I believe this is because he was the reincarnation of Zon-Kuthon or something like that), and was compelled to seek out this consciousness. Eventually Dou-Bral managed to get outside the multiverse to where Zon-Kuthon's consciousness was waiting, and the consciousness consumed Dou-Bral, once again becoming Zon-Kuthon.
As an additional aside, the Dark Tapestry is just the void of space in the Universe. While it shares many characteristics of whatever is beyond the multiverse (which is why the outer gods tend to stay there when they're in the multiverse), it is it's own thing.
Anyway, to answer your question, Zon-Kuthon didn't come back from the Dark Tapestry, he came back from beyond the multiverse, and he didn't bring back a primordial chunk of darkness or shadow.
He did however take the first shadow from Abadar's vault, which might be what you're thinking of.
EDIT: To be clear, Paizo typically treats deities and the events of the distant past as myths and/or from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. So it's perfectly fine to interpret events in different ways. Don't want you to think I'm dunking on your theory or anything. Just providing information.
Creative Director
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There's not really anything akin to "Primordial Darkness" or "Primordial Shadow" in Golarion or Pathfinder, really, so if you're looking for a canonical definition of those things, you won't find them. They're not defined, so what the difference might be between them is left up to the individual to choose.
Zon-Kuthon's been linked to the Dark Tapestry in earlier products, but that was a lore/narrative error back in the day when the Dark Tapestrey was less defined. The Dark Tapestry is fully in the universe; it's "fantasy speak" for the phrase "deep space" and is coded to be the part of space that includes alien life forms that are fully inimical to humanity. The Dominion of the Black comes from here. Many of the Lovecraftian monsters come from here too. Other things do as well.
Zon-Kuthon went beyond the Outer Sphere, not just into the depths of the Universe. What's beyond the Outer Sphere is NOT the same as the Dark Tapestry. What's beyond the Outer Sphere is one of the biggest undefined mysteries of the setting, in fact, and it's likely to remain mysterious for a long time.
So again, in a homebrew, linking Zon-Kuthon to a primordial Darkness or a primordial Shadow is fine, but it's not something that has any established lore in the setting, so you're very much in homebrew territory here. Which, again, is totally cool!
It'd certainly help folks to help brainstorm if you created a brief definition about what these two primordial things are, though, since it's hard to be able to give any input without those things being defined.
AND Since this is non-canonical, it's something that beyond this I'll probably NOT take a part in brainstorming, since that can confuse folks. Have fun though! It's absolutely an intriguing topic!
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Thanks for the clarification about ZK's relationship to the Dark Tapestry! That genuinely helps a lot; I'd always been confused how contact with aliens turned him into a shadow fiend sicko.
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There's not really anything akin to "Primordial Darkness" or "Primordial Shadow" in Golarion or Pathfinder, really, so if you're looking for a canonical definition of those things, you won't find them. They're not defined, so what the difference might be between them is left up to the individual to choose.
Zon-Kuthon's been linked to the Dark Tapestry in earlier products, but that was a lore/narrative error back in the day when the Dark Tapestrey was less defined. The Dark Tapestry is fully in the universe; it's "fantasy speak" for the phrase "deep space" and is coded to be the part of space that includes alien life forms that are fully inimical to humanity. The Dominion of the Black comes from here. Many of the Lovecraftian monsters come from here too. Other things do as well.
Zon-Kuthon went beyond the Outer Sphere, not just into the depths of the Universe. What's beyond the Outer Sphere is NOT the same as the Dark Tapestry. What's beyond the Outer Sphere is one of the biggest undefined mysteries of the setting, in fact, and it's likely to remain mysterious for a long time.
So again, in a homebrew, linking Zon-Kuthon to a primordial Darkness or a primordial Shadow is fine, but it's not something that has any established lore in the setting, so you're very much in homebrew territory here. Which, again, is totally cool!
It'd certainly help folks to help brainstorm if you created a brief definition about what these two primordial things are, though, since it's hard to be able to give any input without those things being defined.
AND Since this is non-canonical, it's something that beyond this I'll probably NOT take a part in brainstorming, since that can confuse folks. Have fun though! It's absolutely an intriguing topic!
Thanks, James.
In my previous post, I made it clear there would be no canon-official answer to my question.
I thought I was clear that I was, in fact, asking people to brainstorm.
I guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
I fully understand why you can't participate in this discussion.
Regarding what I think "Primordial Darkness" and "Primordial Shadow" is, your suggestion that I define it is not unreasonable.
So, without further delay, the following are what I mean.
1) Primordial Darkness - When I think of "Primordial Darkness," I'm thinking of the darkness that existed in the multiverse before the first star ignited. The darkness was absolutely 100% pure as no light had shone upon it yet. In my mind, it is an almost "living" thing (but not really because there was no life before light). It is tangible to some though and Zon-Kuthon is one of those entities to whom it is tangible or, at the very least, he has the capability to "gather" it up by some divine method. When he cam back into the multiverse, he used this "Primordial Darkness" to cast Nidal in some level of Darkness permanently. It couldn't be 100% dark, but enough to suit his purposes.
2) Primordial Shadow - When I think of "Primordial Shadow," I'm thinking of the first shadow that was ever formed when the first non-star in space emerged and what it cast behind it after the first star ignited close by. It was a new thing and I'm thinking it, too, might have had some semblance of life or, at the very least, could have been tangible. Again Zon-Kuthon, to my thinking, could have been one of those entities that could grasp (or contain) a shard of Primordial Shadow. It is this "piece" of Primordial Shadow he brought back to the multiverse that he used to create the Shadow Plane. An obvious problem here could be that the Shadow Plane was somehow formed long before Zon-Kuthon came back from outside of the multiverse (I am unfamiliar with any canon source describing how the Shadow Plane was formed).
I'm sure there could be some other canon issues with my trains of thought, but what if Zon-Kuthon had a piece of "leftover" Primordial Darkness or Primordial Shadow and used it to imbue an adamantine spiked-chain with its power and give it to a servant like Vreet Hall or some other? I'm picturing a spiked-chain with some wisps of this darkness/shadow playing over the links of the chain and doing some weird "darkness" or "shadow" damage when it strikes. It could also have a unique power (I call it "Obscurity") that a few times a day this darkness/shadow could be called forth to give its wielder 20% concealment even in the brightest of conditions.
So I guess what I really want to know is, what is it that's powering the spiked-chain I just described? Darkness or Shadow?
I see arguments for both, but I'm asking for help from the Forums (not necessarily you, James) here to visualize (with lore I proposed above) what makes the most sense?
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Since ZK came back from beyond, I feel the more ancient Primordial Darkness fits better. Maybe he met its remnants on his way back through the fringes of the multiverse, where the Primordial Darkness fled the expanding Light.
Or maybe, based on the lore SOLDIER-1st provided above, ZK's consciousness actually gained some control over the Primordial Darkness and used it to weaken Dou-Bral's spirit/inner light enough that ZK would emerge as the dominant psyche.
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Since ZK came back from beyond, I feel the more ancient Primordial Darkness fits better. Maybe he met its remnants on his way back through the fringes of the multiverse, where the Primordial Darkness fled the expanding Light.
That's an imaginative solution as to how Zon-Kuthon encountered that Primordial Darkness, but hold on...
Or maybe, based on the lore SOLDIER-1st provided above, ZK's consciousness actually gained some control over the Primordial Darkness and used it to weaken Dou-Bral's spirit/inner light enough that ZK would emerge as the dominant psyche.
While I don't particularly like the mechanism you proposed here, SOLDIER-1st's recounting of ZK's existence before Dou-Bral came and "got" him leads me speculate that since ZK existed before the current universe/multiverse, he had a front row seat (along with Pharasma) to witness the creation of it.
He definitely would have had some sort of access to the Primordial Darkness of which he undoubtedly would have taken a piece. If he also was around to experience the ignition of the first star in the new universe, he would also likely have interposed something between its light and himself. Maybe that something was a large chunk of rock he created to act as a shield.
That which was cast over him as a result of blocking that light would have been the First Shadow. Seeing that the First Shadow protected him to a significant degree, he gathered most of that up, too.
When ZK merged with Dou-Bral and came back to the current universe/multiverse, he used the piece of Primal Darkness to reinforce the binding of Nidal to him, and then he used most of the First Shadow to create the Shadow Plane (Netherworld in PF2e terms) as a warped reflection of parts of the Universe. He used the remaining piece of the First Shadow to aid in creating his "Chain of Obscurity."
So, I have concluded that ZK brought BOTH a piece of Primordial Darkness and a large portion of the First Shadow back with him to the current multiverse.
Thank you to all who indulged me. It really helped me to sort things out in my own mind.