Razmiran Priest and Divine Scrolls

[Ravingdork]

Since a Razmiran Priest with Cleric Dedication treats all divine cleric spells as occult spells, does this mean that an occult spellcaster (such as a bard, sorcerer, witch, et al.) with Cleric Dedication could use wands and scrolls of divine spells since they are on his occult tradition list, despite not yet having Basic Spellcasting?

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Ravingdork wrote:

Since a Razmiran Priest with Cleric Dedication treats all divine cleric spells as occult spells, does this mean that an occult spellcaster (such as a bard, sorcerer, witch, et al.) with Cleric Dedication could use wands and scrolls of divine spells since they are on his occult tradition list, despite not yet having Basic Spellcasting?

Don't they just gain this ability from Cleric dedication?

Player Core 215 wrote:

A spellcasting archetype allows you to use scrolls, staves, and wands in the same way that a member of a spellcasting class can. [,,,] Spellcasting archetypes always grant the ability to cast cantrips in their dedication, and then they have a basic spellcasting feat, an expert spellcasting feat, and a master spellcasting feat.

This seems to describe the Cleric multiclass adequately.

I gather that PFS has a note about gaining the basic spellcasting feat counting as having spellcasting for the purposes of items--I don't know if this is meant to be a way to clear up cases where other archetypes grant basic spellcasting but aren't formally "Spellcasting Archetypes" as defined above, or it's simply intended to be an additional restriction on when exactly spellcasting archetypes grant the ability to use those items, but outside of PFS this seems pretty cut and dry on first blush

(which is of course where all things seem easy and intuitive before further information proves me wrong, but that's the way it goes)

[Errenor]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I gather that PFS has a note about gaining the basic spellcasting feat counting as having spellcasting for the purposes of items--I don't know if this is meant to be a way to clear up cases where other archetypes grant basic spellcasting but aren't formally "Spellcasting Archetypes" as defined above, or it's simply intended to be an additional restriction on when exactly spellcasting archetypes grant the ability to use those items, but outside of PFS this seems pretty cut and dry on first blush

Wow. Now I'm confused. Yes, it's true, on the Options page for PC1: "Gaining the basic spellcasting feats from a spellcasting archetype counts as having a spellcasting class feature for the purpose of activating an item with a Cast a Spell activation."

I was sure that this changed in the remaster and dedication feats are enough now that the devs have removed "the basic spellcasting feat counts as having a spellcasting class feature" from Spellcasting archetypes rules. And "You gain the Cast a Spell activity" it seems always was there in dedication feats.
Could they finally make this clear?

[SuperBidi]

Yes, it's weird. I feel PFS added something useless and rather missleading.

[Errenor]

SuperBidi wrote:

Yes, it's weird. I feel PFS added something useless and rather missleading.

Well, they also could be completely correct that Paizo never intended to change old rules. And that's why they've removed the only indication what "spellcasting class feature" could even mean from the game. Very wise.

Well, not the only one actually. Non-Spellcasters with Focus Spells: "Though you can cast your focus spells, you don’t qualify for feats and other rules that require you to be a spellcaster or have a spellcasting class feature—those require you to have spell slots." And that's really all.
By the way I've found two other things which use the concept "spellcasting class feature": Learn a Spell activity and human Adapted cantrip feat. And the definition of what 'spellcaster' even is - yes, one having "spellcasting class feature". Which is never really defined, except once in passing.

[Ravingdork]

Uh, so what exactly is the current consensus on Dedications and spellcasting?

[SuperBidi]

There's no need for a consensus, rules are clear: You have the archetype you can use Wands, Scrolls and Staves.

[The Raven Black]

Dedication is enough for wands, scrolls and staves.

Basic spellcasting feat is necessary for other items that use the Cast a spell activation method.

Same as pre-Remaster IIRC.

[Ravingdork]

So...this thread is moot then?

[Errenor]

SuperBidi wrote:

There's no need for a consensus, rules are clear: You have the archetype you can use Wands, Scrolls and Staves.

The Raven Black wrote:

Dedication is enough for wands, scrolls and staves.

Not sure about wands and scrolls (what is the difference between them and other things with Cast a Spell? specific list of requirements without mention of 'spellcasting class feature'? and when you have dedication that allows you to have 'spell list' mentioned even if you have no slots?), but staves absolutely don't work without normal spell slots: "When you do so, that staff gains a number of charges equal to the rank of your highest spell slot." No slots, no charges, no preparation, no casting spells. From charges.

But cantrips... Another gray area. Cantrips don't require charges, nominally don't even require staff preparation. Or not:" A staff is tied to a person during a preparation process, after which the preparer, and only the preparer, can use the staff to produce magic" ?

[SuperBidi]

Errenor wrote:

But cantrips... Another gray area. Cantrips don't require charges, nominally don't even require staff preparation. Or not:" A staff is tied to a person during a preparation process, after which the preparer, and only the preparer, can use the staff to produce magic" ?

Yep, for Staves it's for Cantrips but also for their benefits (Staff of Providence gives skill bonuses for example). And from the description it's rather clear that you need to prepare for the Staff to benefit from its powers.

[Errenor]

SuperBidi wrote:

Errenor wrote:

But cantrips... Another gray area. Cantrips don't require charges, nominally don't even require staff preparation. Or not:" A staff is tied to a person during a preparation process, after which the preparer, and only the preparer, can use the staff to produce magic" ?

Yep, for Staves it's for Cantrips but also for their benefits (Staff of Providence gives skill bonuses for example). And from the description it's rather clear that you need to prepare for the Staff to benefit from its powers.

Ah, so your version is that you still need to prepare (0 charges) and then can cast cantrips? And for example you can't disarm a villain of their staff and cast cantrips from it at them?

[SuperBidi]

Errenor wrote:

Ah, so your version is that you still need to prepare (0 charges) and then can cast cantrips? And for example you can't disarm a villain of their staff and cast cantrips from it at them?

The sentence you quoted insists heavily. I don't think you should sidestep it by stating you are "just casting cantrips".

[Errenor]

Noted.

[The Raven Black]

Errenor wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

There's no need for a consensus, rules are clear: You have the archetype you can use Wands, Scrolls and Staves.

The Raven Black wrote:

Dedication is enough for wands, scrolls and staves.

Not sure about wands and scrolls (what is the difference between them and other things with Cast a Spell? specific list of requirements without mention of 'spellcasting class feature'? and when you have dedication that allows you to have 'spell list' mentioned even if you have no slots?)

Cast a Spell

Source GM Core pg. 220 2.0
If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” you have to use the same actions as casting the spell to Activate the Item, unless noted otherwise. This happens when the item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class feature to Activate an Item with this activation.

So, the dedication feat being enough to use scrolls, staves and wands is an exception to the general rule.

The PFS note clarifies that the Basic Spellcasting feat fulfills the "have a spellcasting class feature" requirement.