So I’ve just started a campaign as a fey sorcerer and I’ve been finding it rather pointless casting fairy dust, I’m talking about the remaster version from this year. The spell lacks the subtle trait, so I couldn’t use it tactically to help an ally sneak somewhere so its perception debuff seems pointless. The will debuff would be great if there were any spells on the primal spell list that have a will save, which apart from fear, there doesn’t seem to be at level 1. The few times I have cast it, I only wanted to trigger the blood magic effect, to give me concealment which is only occasionally useful, and I feel like I might be better served using my movement to get out of the threat zone. The whole thing seems like a bit of a flop compared to other blood magic focus spells.
Another issue I’m concerned about is the blood magic effect and my charm spell. I want charm person to be a subtle spell option, but given this is my blood magic spells, the effect would fire, setting off a rather obvious cloak of ribbons floating around me either giving me a bonus to performance or concealed… how useful! Negating any subtlety altogether.
I really love this class thematically, but it feels like the blood magic and focus spells are working against my own spell list…
Is there anything I’m missing? I’m relatively new to pathfinder, so perhaps there’s something obvious I'm oblivious to.
There is combat stealth which can be quite useful, especially for rogues
and of course the will (and perception) debuff is a decent setup for almost every other spell you get from the bloodline
also consider that your bloodline effect is optional, you dont have to activate it - but in combat the concealed is again a flat chance to enemies just not hitting you
the +2 performance are admittedly a bit circumstancial, but imagine you are doing a performance for whatever reason anyway and cast a subtle spell during that - your next check is boosted, yay!
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I'm having a blast with my gnome fey sorcerer in Age of Ashes.
Faerie dust has been quite useful in conjunction with abilities like Bon Mot and spells like laughing fit or charm to turn encounters in our favor, or even completely end them.
And yeah, I'm pretty sure the bloodline effects are optional.
The Focus Spells have been improved IMO, though as normal, it's whether there's synergy which as other have mentioned, there can be. IMO the best aspect of Faerie Dust is you have a one-action option, so it's competing with third actions, not your main spells. If cast with more actions, I'd think of it more as setting up an ally's AoE Will-save ability. Primal doesn't have many of those, but you might want to pick up some for when your radius improves, i.e. 8th level Suggestion.
As for Blood Magic Effects, I'm not a fan of the default ones and think their purpose is for low-levels where they're kinda okay (at least as carrier effects go). As it gets easier to trigger the effects at later levels, you can also get better effects via feats. There's sort of a multiplicative power scaling.
Take Anoint Ally (and keep it running in dangerous zones) and couple that with say Explosion of Power, and your team's tank can move into the thick of combat and explode on your behalf. With Faerie Dust being one action, you can trigger the explosion while casting normally (perhaps another spell that triggers too). And heck, if you find yourself surrounded in some ambush, you could cast Faerie Dust three times (if you have the Focus Pool for it) or just Faerie Dust/boom, Fey Disappearance/boom, and skedaddle near the healer as hopefully you've blown a gap in their ranks if they're lower enough level that they have enough allies to surround you.
(I actually think that combo of feats is broken, as Explosion of Power seems to warrant its strength on the wee Sorcerer being too vulnerable to try to get surrounded, a risk/cost which the Anoint Ally overcomes.)
Tactical Drongo wrote: There is combat stealth which can be quite useful, especially for rogues
and of course the will (and perception) debuff is a decent setup for almost every other spell you get from the bloodline
also consider that your bloodline effect is optional, you dont have to activate it - but in combat the concealed is again a flat chance to enemies just not hitting you
the +2 performance are admittedly a bit circumstancial, but imagine you are doing a performance for whatever reason anyway and cast a subtle spell during that - your next check is boosted, yay!
I guess I just have to wait to higher levels to get my bloodline spells for those will saves to come into effect. I’ve used concealed effect in combat, though at level 1 getting 3/4 chances of getting hit doesn’t seem worth the risk.
I’m glad to hear the bloodline effect is optional, I couldn’t read anywhere that it was, it just made it seem like I had to choose which effect and it would happen no matter what.
Concealed is much better than 3/4 of a chance of being hit.
It works like this.
The target is concealed.
The enemy says "I am going to swing at the target." Then they roll a d20, and if they fail the flat check, they auto-miss and effectively lose the action(s).
If they make the flat check, then they roll as normal to actually hit.
As a GM, I've lost track of the times a monster has rolled a 20 on the Conceal flat check, and then something like a 7 on the actual hit roll. The Concealed condition has mitigated thousands of points of damage in the games I've run.
It's really undervalued by a lot of people I think.
But that also doesn't mean a low-level caster should stay tight in melee and rely on it to save them, all I'm saying is don't sleep on how good it is.
jacktact wrote: Tactical Drongo wrote: There is combat stealth which can be quite useful, especially for rogues
and of course the will (and perception) debuff is a decent setup for almost every other spell you get from the bloodline
also consider that your bloodline effect is optional, you dont have to activate it - but in combat the concealed is again a flat chance to enemies just not hitting you
the +2 performance are admittedly a bit circumstancial, but imagine you are doing a performance for whatever reason anyway and cast a subtle spell during that - your next check is boosted, yay!
I guess I just have to wait to higher levels to get my bloodline spells for those will saves to come into effect. I’ve used concealed effect in combat, though at level 1 getting 3/4 chances of getting hit doesn’t seem worth the risk.
I’m glad to hear the bloodline effect is optional, I couldn’t read anywhere that it was, it just made it seem like I had to choose which effect and it would happen no matter what. You should probably grab some additional vs Will spells from your list
but not exclusively, being able to target all the saves is one of the strength of casters -> the difference between a good and a bad savong throw for monsters can be a (theoretical) difference from up to 16 points (!) quick look at the monster creation table in the gm core
more realistically it still can be a difference from like 6 points which gives you a 30% higher success and critical chance - if the lowest save then happens to be the will save you can increase your chance by 10% extra
Lia Wynn wrote: Concealed is much better than 3/4 of a chance of being hit.
It works like this.
The target is concealed.
The enemy says "I am going to swing at the target." Then they roll a d20, and if they fail the flat check, they auto-miss and effectively lose the action(s).
If they make the flat check, then they roll as normal to actually hit.
As a GM, I've lost track of the times a monster has rolled a 20 on the Conceal flat check, and then something like a 7 on the actual hit roll. The Concealed condition has mitigated thousands of points of damage in the games I've run.
It's really undervalued by a lot of people I think.
But that also doesn't mean a low-level caster should stay tight in melee and rely on it to save them, all I'm saying is don't sleep on how good it is.
This is very important too
it does not seem like much at first glance
but especially for casters -> your armor class maxes out at expert and not all of them are going to maximise dexterity
you are an easy target (10% easier vs average martials, 20% vs monks and champions, possibly 5-10% extra depending on your dexterity)
and have (comparatively) few hit points
you eat more hits and eat them harder (when you are engaged)
now if 25% of those hits simple are non existant, that can give you a lot of extra time on your feet
What does your spell list look like?
Tactical Drongo wrote: jacktact wrote: Tactical Drongo wrote: There is combat stealth which can be quite useful, especially for rogues
and of course the will (and perception) debuff is a decent setup for almost every other spell you get from the bloodline
also consider that your bloodline effect is optional, you dont have to activate it - but in combat the concealed is again a flat chance to enemies just not hitting you
the +2 performance are admittedly a bit circumstancial, but imagine you are doing a performance for whatever reason anyway and cast a subtle spell during that - your next check is boosted, yay!
I guess I just have to wait to higher levels to get my bloodline spells for those will saves to come into effect. I’ve used concealed effect in combat, though at level 1 getting 3/4 chances of getting hit doesn’t seem worth the risk.
I’m glad to hear the bloodline effect is optional, I couldn’t read anywhere that it was, it just made it seem like I had to choose which effect and it would happen no matter what. You should probably grab some additional vs Will spells from your list
but not exclusively, being able to target all the saves is one of the strength of casters -> the difference between a good and a bad savong throw for monsters can be a (theoretical) difference from up to 16 points (!) quick look at the monster creation table in the gm core
more realistically it still can be a difference from like 6 points which gives you a 30% higher success and critical chance - if the lowest save then happens to be the will save you can increase your chance by 10% extra
Lia Wynn wrote: Concealed is much better than 3/4 of a chance of being hit.
It works like this.
The target is concealed.
The enemy says "I am going to swing at the target." Then they roll a d20, and if they fail the flat check, they auto-miss and effectively lose the action(s).
If they make the flat check, then they roll as normal to actually hit.
As a GM, I've lost track of the times
... Yeah I guess my main problem is that the primal spell list seems to have almost no will save spells, at least among the options I have in the levels one and two. It's all fortitude and reflex saves. I love some blasting, but it makes the farie dust redundant. I can see some of my bloodline spells having will saves, but I'll also be doubling up on blood magic triggers if I use them together. Oh well.
As for the blood magic effect giving concealed, I see what you mean with two rolls of the dice to determine if I'm hit, though I still have to anticipate my attack and cast the spell in the exact round before being struck as the effect only lasts for the round.
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote: What does your spell list look like? These are my options according to archives of nethys via search up to level 4 spells.
1st rank
4/4
Charm - A creature becomes more friendly to you. (I have this as part of my bloodline)
Limited Elysian Whimsy - You overwhelm the target with an unexpected and unpredictable desire if it fails a Will save.
Fear - Frighten a creature, possibly making it flee.
Lose the Path - React to impede and possibly divert a Stride.
2nd rank
2/2
Standard Albatross Curse - You create a spectral albatross, a guiding bird for sailors, to hover around the target.
Limited Impart Empathy - You expand the target's ability to understand social cues that are normally beyond its comprehension.
3rd rank
2/2
Caster's Imposition - A magical interference prevents the target from contributing to any form of cooperative spellcasting.
Standard Positive Attunement - Attune a creature to the Positive Energy Plane, healing a living creature or damaging an undead.
4th rank
5/5
Limited Compel True Name - You instruct the target to do something, compelling obedience by calling it by its true name.
Deathless March - You chant a marching song of Yled to empower the undead and terrify the living.
Grasp of the Deep - Make a creature feel like it’s being crushed underwater.
Luring Wail - You emit a plaintive cry to lure your enemies closer.
Radiant Heart of Devotion - You speak a fervent prayer for the heavens to assist you and your righteous allies.
Not a lot of good options, I might see if I can sweet-talk my GM to include some other spells from occult or arcane.
Castilliano wrote: The Focus Spells have been improved IMO, though as normal, it's whether there's synergy which as other have mentioned, there can be. IMO the best aspect of Faerie Dust is you have a one-action option, so it's competing with third actions, not your main spells. If cast with more actions, I'd think of it more as setting up an ally's AoE Will-save ability. Primal doesn't have many of those, but you might want to pick up some for when your radius improves, i.e. 8th level Suggestion.
As for Blood Magic Effects, I'm not a fan of the default ones and think their purpose is for low-levels where they're kinda okay (at least as carrier effects go). As it gets easier to trigger the effects at later levels, you can also get better effects via feats. There's sort of a multiplicative power scaling.
Take Anoint Ally (and keep it running in dangerous zones) and couple that with say Explosion of Power, and your team's tank can move into the thick of combat and explode on your behalf. With Faerie Dust being one action, you can trigger the explosion while casting normally (perhaps another spell that triggers too). And heck, if you find yourself surrounded in some ambush, you could cast Faerie Dust three times (if you have the Focus Pool for it) or just Faerie Dust/boom, Fey Disappearance/boom, and skedaddle near the healer as hopefully you've blown a gap in their ranks if they're lower enough level that they have enough allies to surround you.
(I actually think that combo of feats is broken, as Explosion of Power seems to warrant its strength on the wee Sorcerer being too vulnerable to try to get surrounded, a risk/cost which the Anoint Ally overcomes.)
These seem like cool options, thanks for sharing. It feels like I'm going to have to wait a long time for this to come online though. We've been playing for three months and I only just arrived at level 2.
Lia Wynn wrote: Concealed is much better than 3/4 of a chance of being hit.
It works like this.
The target is concealed.
The enemy says "I am going to swing at the target." Then they roll a d20, and if they fail the flat check, they auto-miss and effectively lose the action(s).
If they make the flat check, then they roll as normal to actually hit.
As a GM, I've lost track of the times a monster has rolled a 20 on the Conceal flat check, and then something like a 7 on the actual hit roll. The Concealed condition has mitigated thousands of points of damage in the games I've run.
It's really undervalued by a lot of people I think.
But that also doesn't mean a low-level caster should stay tight in melee and rely on it to save them, all I'm saying is don't sleep on how good it is.
Thanks for that explainer. I guess I'll try and treat it like a panic button for escapes, giving me concealed and removing reactions.
Ravingdork wrote: I'm having a blast with my gnome fey sorcerer in Age of Ashes.
Faerie dust has been quite useful in conjunction with abilities like Bon Mot and spells like laughing fit or charm to turn encounters in our favor, or even completely end them.
And yeah, I'm pretty sure the bloodline effects are optional.
Hey I'm glad to hear you're having a great time with it! I'm enjoying the flavour, I just feel like I hadn't quite worked out its benefit, especially given it's the main ability you can spam. I'm looking forward to laughing fit when I get higher level spells, and charm has proven useful socially, but I've never used it in combat. Definitely glad to hear that bloodline effects are optional.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charm in combat is not ideal due to the built in combat penalties, but I've gotten lucky a few times, more so with debuffs from allies as well as my own feats and abilities.
Here's my own character sheet (and Pathbuilder Breakdown). Maybe it will help you in some way.
He doesn't have too many offensive options yet, and really leans into the animal theme, but since I built him that way, it's still fun for me.
Do your allies not use Will-save effects?
A great deal of PF2's power comes from teamwork. You can see it with all the abilities that debuff until the beginning of your next turn.
There are Blood Magic Effects that are instantaneous if you're worried about wasting via overlapping duration.
Castilliano wrote: Do your allies not use Will-save effects?
A great deal of PF2's power comes from teamwork. You can see it with all the abilities that debuff until the beginning of your next turn.
There are Blood Magic Effects that are instantaneous if you're worried about wasting via overlapping duration.
I'm the only caster apart from our cleric, who's been using all her spells on healing tbh. I think they have bain though so that could work together I guess.
I was more thinking of if I used faerie dust and then another one of my bloodline spells in the same round, I'd be doubling up on the blood magic trigger, that's all I meant by that.
Ravingdork wrote: Charm in combat is not ideal due to the built in combat penalties, but I've gotten lucky a few times, more so with debuffs from allies as well as my own feats and abilities.
Here's my own character sheet (and Pathbuilder Breakdown). Maybe it will help you in some way.
He doesn't have too many offensive options yet, and really leans into the animal theme, but since I built him that way, it's still fun for me.
Yeah I can see Charm being hard to get off. Thanks for sharing your character sheet, your stat's are amazing! Here's mine in Pathbuilder - we just got to level 2.
I guess I can share my current Fey Sorceress, but ignore the spell selection (it is heavily tailored to the Skulls & Shackles campaign) as well as Shore Gift & Amnesiac (GM only allowed Merfolk if they "forgot" about being Merfolk).
But what I want to highlight is similar to what I wrote in Ravendork's threat about his Fey Sorcerer: Absolutely get the Bard dedication on a Fey Sorcerer!
Hitting enemies with Faerie Dust gives them a -2 penalty to Will saves and and you a +2 status bonus to Performance, then use Versatile Performance [4th level] to Demoralize them. For one action (& 1 focus point) you just shifted the balance for a successful Demoralize by 4 points, that's equivalent to increasing a martial's weapon potency by +2 and giving his enemy the off-guard condition! And since Faerie Dust is an AoE you can try to hit 2+ enemies at once and then Demoralize the two enemies that failed.
And your bloodline's spells all target Will saves, 2nd-rank Laughing Fit and 3rd-rank Fear are absolute beasts among spells, the former against (single) enemies with strong reactions and the latter against (many) enemies. Getting this on the otherwise very blasty & healy primal spell-list is amazing.
But as the others said, 2e is a lot about teamwork, so if nobody else targets Will saves it is sometimes less useful, but feinting Swashbucklers or some draconic breath weapons (with mental damage) profit a lot here.
If you instead get other bloodmagic effects via class feats, then it's a good 1-action option as well, e.g. you can reposition an enemy or an ally with Propelling Sorcery, which is not to be underestimated either.
p.s.: At level 8 you can grab Melodious Spell from the Bard, which I really love. You can now make all your spells subtle and/or use the spellshape-action as a Demoralize-action. That's great for out-of-combat use and makes this spellshape even useful in combat if you want to Demoralize anyway.
Thank uou for sharing your builds.
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