Cooperative Crafting - participant limit?

[Diachronos]

I couldn't find any mention of it elsewhere, so I figured that I would ask here:
Is there a limit on how many people can use the Cooperative Crafting feat on the same crafting project? Or is it a flat x2 speed increase no matter what?

For example, I know that if I had a Valet familiar I could make a bag of holding at double speed, but what if I were to hire a mage with Cooperative Crafting and Craft Wondrous Item? Would I then be crafting at triple speed (assuming that it follows the usual rules for stacking "doubled" effects)?

[Diego Rossi]

I would rule that it is the same source, the feat Cooperative Crafting, so it will not stack, but I don't doubt that some GM would rule differently.

[Pizza Lord]

I think it would stack. I don't think the 'doubling the crafting limit' counts as a bonus in the same way as stacking bonuses works. A GM can assign reasonable limits to how many people can assist in a task. For instance, only so many people can really help with picking a lock. Only so many people can really help with a crowbar to open doors. A GM can certainly put an assistant limit where they feel that more people are just getting in the way.

Assuming we're just focused on the magic item creation aspect (and not Crafting), then it will allow faster creation. Typically it's 1,000 gp/day for most items, so it would up to 2,000gp and then another doubling will triple it to 3,000 gp. Assuming the Craft rolls and such aren't an issue (like creating the masterwork weapon or crafting a golem's body), then a crafter with two assistants with Cooperative Crafting could get higher value items done in a shorter time.

They still need all the skills, the assistants still need to pass an assist/aid another check. It's a DC 10 (can't Take 10), but it's still possible to fail if you're just trying to use low-level apprentices (for scrolls maybe, but they'd likely have to be 3rd or 5th for most other items). You still need to pay all the costs and your crafters can still only work on one item at a time, so I don't think it would be too egregious unless you're literally just pumping out an assembly line.

It definitely is a time-saver. A 12,000 gp magic item would be done in 4 days instead of 12 (at triple speed), but really, assuming all the crafters involved need the creation feat, if they all just made the item themselves (assuming they could pass the Spellcraft), you'd have three of the items after the normal crafting time anyway. The only difference would be if they didn't have the skill ranks to pass reliably on their own. In which case, they spent a feat for Cooperative Crafting. They could just as easily take Skill Focus (Spellcraft) instead and basically do the same thing alone.

Just my thoughts on it, though.

[OmniMage]

I don't see much value in taking cooperative crafting. Its another feat you don't need. The two crafters could get as much work done by working on separate items.

[Mysterious Stranger]

One additional benefit of cooperative crafting is that either person involved can fulfill any prerequisite. While the rules state that you can use another magic item or spell caster for the spell, it does not state that another character can fulfill other prerequisites. Some items have skills or class abilities as prerequisites, cooperative crafting would allow creating some items that might be difficult for any single character to meet all the prerequisites.

Personally, I would limit the increased gold per day to x3. The feat does not give details on how it actually works. One reason for the increased gold per day could be that the crafters are working in shift. Normally you can only spend 8 hours per day crafting. If the feat is allowing a second crafter to work an extra 8 hours, it makes sense they can double the rate of progress. Since there are only 24 hours in a day that would mean you can have a maximum of 3 shifts per day. This is how I would rule in this case, but there is nothing in RAW that supports this.

I would however allow the +2 per person with the feat on the skill roll up to a reasonable number. I would probably go no more than 3 crafters per shift. So, if you managed to find 9 people with the feat you could get a +18 to the roll. But one thing to remember is that both characters have to have the relevant craft or item creation feat. So, if you are making a magic sword all characters need craft magic weapon and armor. A character with brew potion would not be able to help in creating a magic sword even if they have cooperative crafting.

[OmniMage]

Yeah, it might be easier to craft with this feat. However, I don't know of many magic items that have other prerequisites though.

[Diego Rossi]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

One additional benefit of cooperative crafting is that either person involved can fulfill any prerequisite. While the rules state that you can use another magic item or spell caster for the spell, it does not state that another character can fulfill other prerequisites. Some items have skills or class abilities as prerequisites, cooperative crafting would allow creating some items that might be difficult for any single character to meet all the prerequisites.

CRB p. 461 wrote:

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

[glass]

Pizza Lord, where are you getting the requirement for an Aid Another rool from? AFAICT, the feat just works.

[Diego Rossi]

glass wrote:

Pizza Lord, where are you getting the requirement for an Aid Another rool from? AFAICT, the feat just works.

Cooperative Crafting wrote:

Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 156
Your assistance makes item crafting far more efficient.

Prerequisites: 1 rank in any Craft skill, any item creation feat.

Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items. You must both possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.

Noting about it being an Aid Another action. It gives a straight circumstance bonus to crafting.

Aid another instead gives an untyped bonus.

[Pizza Lord]

glass wrote:

Pizza Lord, where are you getting the requirement for an Aid Another rool from? AFAICT, the feat just works.

Just ignore that part. I was considering the benefits of allowing multiple helpers and was comparing them to aid another and didn't edit that part out.