Drain Soul Cage [free-action] Frequency once per day; Effect The lich taps into their soul cage's power to cast any arcane spell up to the highest rank the lich can cast, even if the spell being cast is not one of the lich's prepared spells. The lich's soul cage doesn't need to be present for the lich to use this ability.
Is the lich intended to spend the actions required for the spell, as with a wizard's Drain Bonded Item?
Oh... that's actually a valid question. I've been assuming all this time that it's functionally identical to Drain Bonded Item except with lich-specific theming, but that's not quite what it says.
On the other hand, the Lich archetype's version makes the soul cage into a bonded item, so it strikes me that the 'obvious' assumption might be the correct reading.
RAW is that it is a free action 1/day to cast any spell in their spell book/repertoire.
RAI would lead me to believe that the RAW is still correct, as this is an NPC ability, so any qualms of balance can go out the window. What it says is what it does.
Honestly, even if this was an archetype feat ability, it wouldn't be broken, since it is a higher level option locked behind a rare archetype with stringent requirements.
RAW is that it is a free action 1/day to cast any spell in their spell book/repertoire.
RAI would lead me to believe that the RAW is still correct, as this is an NPC ability, so any qualms of balance can go out the window. What it says is what it does.
Honestly, even if this was an archetype feat ability, it wouldn't be broken, since it is a higher level option locked behind a rare archetype with stringent requirements.
Qualms about balance shouldn't be dismissed so easily. A level 12 monster should be roughly as powerful as a level 12 player character.
Additionally, rare does not mean more powerful, just potentially problematic for the adventure the GM wants to run.
Hitting the entire enemy team with vampiric exsanquination twice in a row doesn't sound like a level 12 feature, not even a rare one. It sounds like a 5e wizard who multiclassed a bit into fighter.
RAW is that it is a free action 1/day to cast any spell in their spell book/repertoire.
RAI would lead me to believe that the RAW is still correct, as this is an NPC ability, so any qualms of balance can go out the window. What it says is what it does.
Honestly, even if this was an archetype feat ability, it wouldn't be broken, since it is a higher level option locked behind a rare archetype with stringent requirements.
Qualms about balance shouldn't be dismissed so easily. A level 12 monster should be roughly as powerful as a level 12 player character.
Additionally, rare does not mean more powerful, just potentially problematic for the adventure the GM wants to run.
Hitting the entire enemy team with vampiric exsanquination twice in a row doesn't sound like a level 12 feature, not even a rare one. It sounds like a 5e wizard who multiclassed a bit into fighter.
And that feature is only as strong as the character utilizing it. So if the creature can only use 6th rank spells, then it is perfectly in line with a 12th level character in terms of power. And monsters break the action economy all the time, it is what makes them monsters. Monsters at this level can also attack 6 times for 3 actions, but nobody is saying that it's unfair because only certain PCs can do it at 18th level.
Rarity has the issue of trying to do too much under one blanket. Things can be Rare by region, availability, or because it breaks the game in unintended ways. Even if it was all of these things, it functions because you don't face Lichs every day, whom are designed to be boss characters, same with dragons and what have you.
Qualms about balance shouldn't be dismissed so easily.
I would agree. There is quite a bit of hyperbole in the argument.
However, the argument itself is fairly solid. For an NPC enemy ability, a free action to cast one spell is not out of line.
I certainly wouldn't give it as a PC ability, but the Lich Archetype doesn't.
So I am not willing to throw balance qualms out of the window entirely. But other than that, I think Darksol is at least giving a good argument. The balance consideration is that an NPC enemy may not have enough actions available during their entire in-game appearance to be able to cast all of their spells. Or whatever other cool things the enemy is able to do. Action reducing abilities are pretty standard for mid to high level enemies.
Isn't this too much, though? Even monsters that make six Strikes in a turn still have restrictions, like MAP or not being allowed to focus fire. Even monsters that are permanently quickened have a clause about what kind of action can be taken.
This is just "Here, Cast a Spell as a free action." The amount of damage the lich can do like this is obscene. 24d6 is an amount of area damage I'd expect a level 23 creature to accomplish, not a level 12 creature.
Isn't this too much, though?
That is a judgement call that each GM is going to have to make.
There are ways of reining in the ability so that it isn't too powerful without actually changing it in any way. Don't cast two damage dealing AoE spells in one round, for example.
The argument is that even written as a free action to cast a max-level spell, that isn't completely out of line for enemy characters. Picking worst-case scenarios isn't going to work well as a counterargument for a general case for the Lich, or universal case for all enemies printed.
Isn't this too much, though? Even monsters that make six Strikes in a turn still have restrictions, like MAP or not being allowed to focus fire. Even monsters that are permanently quickened have a clause about what kind of action can be taken.
This is just "Here, Cast a Spell as a free action." The amount of damage the lich can do like this is obscene. 24d6 is an amount of area damage I'd expect a level 23 creature to accomplish, not a level 12 creature.
Most MAP effects don't apply until after the action resolves, or has a reduced value, or something to that effect. Even if MAP does apply normally, monsters usually have such good stats that the penalties just make it to where the average amount of times you get hit is around 4-5.
Very rarely will you have monsters that are Quickened, and even then those require specific circumstances to occur, which are easily avoided by the PCs.
You also forget that this effect requires 2 separate saves, and that it is very commonplace for Juggernaut to be present amongst the martials, the most likely targets of this spell. In the weird events they aren't, those classes make up for it in other ways. And honestly, there are probably better spells to follow up with this that will make it much more difficult for the party, like Mass Slow.
Honestly, this is really only broken as a boss monster, the most common use of this creature type, as this creature has extremely modified spellcasting stats for its level (a level 12 spellcaster can't reach the same modifiers as this creature and doesn't possess special items or abilities to justify it). If you throw this creature against a party of Level 12 PCs they will likely curbstomp it, even if it does a powerful wombo-combo.
It shouldn't be broken at all, especially in the most common circumstance where it fights the PCs.
It shouldn't be broken at all, especially in the most common circumstance where it fights the PCs.
The thing is that it isn't; "broken" in this case would mean that it's probably overpowered, and not "it doesn't work." It's quite clear how the RAW of this ability functions. And monsters, especially boss monsters, are built with overpowered abilities, by design. Otherwise, they aren't really boss monsters.
How does the lich work as a level 12 enemy in practice, though?
Is it notorious for causing TPKs? If so, is that caused by the "Cast a Spell as a free action" reading? Or does the lich easily cause a TPK even with the "just Cast a Spell it didn't prepare" reading?
Is it notoriously weak for its level? If so, is that caused by the "just Cast a Spell it didn't prepare" reading? Or does the lich flounder even with the "Cast a Spell as a free action" reading?
Is it just right for its level? Which reading have people been using for it to be "just right"?
How does the lich work as a level 12 enemy in practice, though?
Is it notorious for causing TPKs? If so, is that caused by the "Cast a Spell as a free action" reading? Or does the lich easily cause a TPK even with the "just Cast a Spell it didn't prepare" reading?
Is it notoriously weak for its level? If so, is that caused by the "just Cast a Spell it didn't prepare" reading? Or does the lich flounder even with the "Cast a Spell as a free action" reading?
Is it just right for its level? Which reading have people been using for it to be "just right"?
It works best as a boss monster because it is both Rare, an iconic entity, as well as a monster with attributes and abilities higher than most creatures of its level. Again, it has significantly higher attributes compared to other creatures of its level (most notably, the Spell DCs and Spell Attack modifiers). If you throw a bunch of them against a higher level party, while some of their stats will keep them from being completely useless, it also invalidates some of its other traits, such as being an iconic Rare entity. I've found that when Paizo designs more solitary creatures compared to creatures that travel in packs, said solitary creatures are inherently stronger and could probably defeat 2 or even 3 other "pack" creatures of the same level, even if it would take significant resources to do so.
In my experience, the #1 thing that has caused TPKs are monsters with reach and reactions, as it essentially forces the party to stay and fight for a chance to win, or run and die anyway, and if you try to heal or cast spells or even move around, you're getting whacked. I have indeed had a couple TPKs due to overpowered spellcaster enemies, but there were other factors in play to potentially rule it out (and no, I don't consider better saving throw rolls as one of them). And honestly, I don't even remember this even being a feature on the Premaster version of the Lich, that the odds of this killing a party is slim to none. And that's not even including whether a GM has either chose to use this ability, or is even running the ability as worded, of which is so infinitesimally small, you'd have to probably hop between universes and dimensions to find even just one instance of it.
I'm not so sure about the lich having superior stats to other creatures of its level. The Building Creatures rules state to give monsters extra extreme statistics at higher levels.
It's not unusual for the lich to have an extreme spell DC. Its Arcana is also extreme, but not particularly relevant to combat.
And yes, the old lich also had Drain Soul Cage with the exact same wording. The only major difference between the two liches seems to be that Paralyzing Touch was replaced with Siphon Life.
I'm just worried about whether the reading that doubles the lich's damage in the first round breaks the fight.
And the lich pulling punches by not bothering with what is effectively an extra 2 or 3 actions makes no sense, as does not optimizing the spells used.
Wait, what about spells with a casting time of 1 minute or more?
Balance considerations like this are already something that the GM has to keep tabs on anyway. This Lich ability isn't exceptional in that regard.
I don't consider it to be pulling punches to avoid using two damage spells in one round. It would be pulling punches to use the ability to cast Bless even though neither the Lich nor any of the nearby lackeys would make good use of the spell. But an AoE spell, recall knowledge on a spellcaster in the party to determine what damage types they like to do, and Drain Soul Cage to cast Resist Energy for an appropriate elemental damage type seems completely reasonable.
Using Drain Soul Cage to cast a spell with a long casting time may strain credibility, but isn't necessarily forbidden. Again, that is up to the GM to balance in accordance with the party and the campaign and use or not use appropriately.
I'm not so sure about the lich having superior stats to other creatures of its level. The Building Creatures rules state to give monsters extra extreme statistics at higher levels.
It's not unusual for the lich to have an extreme spell DC. Its Arcana is also extreme, but not particularly relevant to combat.
And yes, the old lich also had Drain Soul Cage with the exact same wording. The only major difference between the two liches seems to be that Paralyzing Touch was replaced with Siphon Life.
I'm just worried about whether the reading that doubles the lich's damage in the first round breaks the fight. And the lich pulling punches by not bothering with what is effectively an extra 2 or 3 actions makes no sense, as does not optimizing the spells used.
Wait, what about spells with a casting time of 1 minute or more?
I mean, a creature having 'extreme' values means it is going to be at the top of that level, compared to other monsters that are at moderate or lower values, as well as way above PCs of that level as well. So, it is probably the strongest spellcaster of that level, and since it is an iconic archtypical spellcaster, it makes sense that it is superior to other spellcasters of that level, which is ultimately the point I am making.
I imagine the slight change between the two instances was mostly done due to copyright infringement of D&D/Hasbro/Whatever, and honestly, that isn't even what makes the Lich a powerful foe. What makes them a powerful foe is the factor that a Save DC of 36 against an optimized PC that is 2 levels lower will still have a 75% chance of them failing, with a 25% chance of critically failing. And that is against their preferred save. Against a non-preferred save, the odds will be even worse.
The damage isn't what is going to break the fight, since a 10th level martial will have an average of 140+ HP, and a Vampiric Exsanguination will deal an average of 42 damage per cast. Even with a double fail, or even one critical failure, the martials will still be left standing (if barely), and unless there are threatening minions around, this can be healed up. What is far less likely to be fixed, is when a Lich casts Mass Slow. DC 36 Fortitude Save against everyone means they are likely to be Slowed 1, or even Slowed 2, for the entire combat. Being restricted to 1 or 2 actions for the entire fight, with little to no recourse, will absolutely destroy the PCs, and if the Lich has Haste on themselves, then it's game over, since they can just outrun the entire party and chuck whatever blast spells or cantrips they want until the party dies out or runs away. And good luck dispelling such a spell, as the optimized spellcaster will have a 15% chance to do so.
A Lich can pull punches if they feel it's not necessary to do so. Remember, this is an ability that can only be used once per day. If the Lich feels like they absolutely need to use it, they will. Otherwise, why waste something just to waste it? If anything, that would be the stupid choice to make.
Also, you cannot cast spells with a non-round cast time in combat, as they otherwise fizzle out and fail to cast. The closest you can get is if you have spells that can emulate non-round cast time spells, such as the Manifestation spell, but we're talking about levels where that isn't a thing.
I don't consider it to be pulling punches to avoid using two damage spells in one round. It would be pulling punches to use the ability to cast Bless even though neither the Lich nor any of the nearby lackeys would make good use of the spell. But an AoE spell, recall knowledge on a spellcaster in the party to determine what damage types they like to do, and Drain Soul Cage to cast Resist Energy for an appropriate elemental damage type seems completely reasonable.Recalling Knowledge about the PCs would be an incredibly hard check for the PCs' level, and it's unlikely to work against most playable ancestries since the lich is not trained in Society. But regardless, whatever the optimal path is for the lich to take, I don't see why the lich wouldn't do that. And that's trouble for the players if the monster was made without "Cast a Spell as a free action" in mind.
I mean, a creature having 'extreme' values means it is going to be at the top of that level, compared to other monsters that are at moderate or lower values, as well as way above PCs of that level as well. So, it is probably the strongest spellcaster of that level, and since it is an iconic archtypical spellcaster, it makes sense that it is superior to other spellcasters of that level, which is ultimately the point I am making.
I don't understand that point. It already has a higher spell DC than any other caster of its level, and it can Counterspell, and it's harder to disrupt with a Reactive Strike or Counterspell. And once per day, it can cast any arcane spell of 6th rank or lower. Why is the picture of the ultimate spellcaster not fully painted unless it also has 5e Action Surge?
The damage isn't what is going to break the fight, since a 10th level martial will have an average of 140+ HP, and a Vampiric Exsanguination will deal an average of 42 damage per cast. Even with a double fail, or even one critical failure, the martials will still be left standing (if barely), and unless there are threatening minions around, this can be healed up. What is far less likely to be fixed, is when a Lich casts Mass Slow. DC 36 Fortitude Save against everyone means they are likely to be Slowed 1, or even Slowed 2, for the entire combat. Being restricted to 1 or 2 actions for the entire fight, with little to no recourse, will absolutely destroy the PCs, and if the Lich has Haste on themselves, then it's game over, since they can just outrun the entire party and chuck whatever blast spells or cantrips they want until the party dies out or runs away. And good luck dispelling such a spell, as the optimized spellcaster will have a 15% chance to do so.
Damage not reigning supreme for spellcasters is a good point, though the optimized spellcaster might actually have a 0% chance of dispelling it if they have only 1 action per turn. And with the more generous Drain Soul Cage interpretation, the lich can cast rank 6 slow twice.
Also, you cannot cast spells with a non-round cast time in combat, as they otherwise fizzle out and fail to cast. The closest you can get is if you have spells that can emulate non-round cast time spells, such as the Manifestation spell, but we're talking about levels where that isn't a thing.
Also fair.
Another thing that got me thinking was this section below the stat block.
You can create a more unusual lich by substituting any one of the following abilities for frightful presence, siphon life, or Drain Soul Cage.
If these can be swapped in that easily, then they should theoretically be on par with RAW Drain Soul Cage. Ok, lets see what these do.
Dark Deliverance The lich has resistance equal to their level to vitality." It's ok, I guess.
"Blasphemous Utterances (arcane, aura, mental) 10 feet. The lich is accompanied by a constant echo of blasphemous murmurs and tainted whispers. A creature in the aura takes a –2 circumstance penalty to saves against mental effects and can't take actions that have the concentrate trait unless they succeed at a DC 10 flat check. On a failure, the action is disrupted." This can be nasty, but is it "free action to cast 2-action spell" nasty?
"Void Shroud (aura, death) 30 feet. The lich is surrounded by an aura of death, drawing forth souls to be consumed by the lich's constant hunger. Living creatures in the emanation take a –2 status penalty to saves against fear and death effects. In addition, any creature that starts its turn in the area gains the doomed 1 condition unless it succeeds at a Will save against the lich's spell DC – 4." This is pretty nasty, too.
Cold Beyond Cold The lich's hand Strike deals cold damage instead of void and the target is slowed 2. A successful Fortitude save reduces this to slowed 1 (or negates it on a critical success)." *spittake* Slowed 2?! On a failure?! And slowed 1 on a success?! No incap?! And where's the DC?!
That first point was in response to "I'm not so sure about the lich having superior stats to other creatures of its level." Having Extreme or higher values means it's the best of the best for that level.
While it is true that the Lich can do so twice, it isn't all that good to do so since it has diminishing returns, and if you know just one enemy made their save, you can just use a base Slow against them and save the higher slot for something stronger. But the average GM will probably limit themselves to what is on the Lich's prepared spell list, since the ability does not reference a base spellbook to draw spells from, meaning the odds of a Slow spell being cast is slim to none.
Interestingly, the Lich has to succeed at a Strike to pull off the added effects, and since 10th level characters have a minimum of 28 AC, the odds of a successful strike is pretty high. I imagine that it is meant to replace the Siphon Life effect, meaning it would make sense to use the same DC as that effect, which is indeed reduced, though even against an optimized character, it is only a 35% chance of success.
I'm saying that the lich being an extreme spellcaster doesn't mean the lich should also get a free action Cast a Spell. If anything, that's a reason the lich should not have that capability.
Ok, maybe double rank 6 slow isn't very efficient. My point is that it's basically a TPK at the very start of the fight. How many people will crit fail if forced to make a DC 36 save twice in one turn? And there are other combinations the lich could do even with just the prepared spells in the stat block, such as double dominate, or rank 6 paralyze along with toxic cloud. On top of that, if the GM uses the guidelines below the stat block to create a lich out of an existing spellcaster, the lich has THAT spell list and a Drain Soul Cage ability to use alongside that.
The DC for Cold Beyond Cold is possibly meant to be 32, actually. Now that I look at the legacy stat block again, it seems to have been written to override some but not all of Paralyzing Touch.
(arcane, curse, incapacitation, necromancy) A creature damaged by the lich's hand Strike must succeed at a Fortitude save against the lich's spell DC – 4. The creature becomes paralyzed for 1 round on a failure. On a critical failure, the creature is paralyzed permanently, falls prone, and seems dead. A DC 25 Medicine check reveals the victim is alive.
The lich's hand Strike deals cold damage instead of negative, and instead of being paralyzed, the target is slowed 2. A successful Fortitude save reduces this to slowed 1 (or negates it on a critical success).
So Cold Beyond Cold would probably look more like:
"Cold Beyond Cold (arcane, curse, incapacitation, necromancy) A creature damaged by the lich's hand Strike is slowed 2. A successful DC 32 Fortitude save reduces this to slowed 1 (or negates it on a critical success)."
I'm saying that the lich being an extreme spellcaster doesn't mean the lich should also get a free action Cast a Spell. If anything, that's a reason the lich should not have that capability.
Ok, maybe double rank 6 slow isn't very efficient. My point is that it's basically a TPK at the very start of the fight. How many people will crit fail if forced to make a DC 36 save twice in one turn? And there are other combinations the lich could do even with just the prepared spells in the stat block, such as double dominate, or rank 6 paralyze along with toxic cloud. On top of that, if the GM uses the guidelines below the stat block to create a lich out of an existing spellcaster, the lich has THAT spell list and a Drain Soul Cage ability to use alongside that.
The DC for Cold Beyond Cold is possibly meant to be 32, actually. Now that I look at the legacy stat block again, it seems to have been written to override some but not all of Paralyzing Touch.
(arcane, curse, incapacitation, necromancy) A creature damaged by the lich's hand Strike must succeed at a Fortitude save against the lich's spell DC – 4. The creature becomes paralyzed for 1 round on a failure. On a critical failure, the creature is paralyzed permanently, falls prone, and seems dead. A DC 25 Medicine check reveals the victim is alive.The lich's hand Strike deals cold damage instead of negative, and instead of being paralyzed, the target is slowed 2. A successful Fortitude save reduces this to slowed 1 (or negates it on a critical success).So Cold Beyond Cold would probably look more like:
"Cold Beyond Cold (arcane, curse, incapacitation, necromancy) A creature damaged by the lich's hand Strike is slowed 2. A successful DC 32 Fortitude save reduces this to slowed 1 (or negates it on a critical success)."
I really don't think these things correlate. The only reason you think the ability is overpowered is because the array of modifiers is likewise overpowered. A Lich, with or without this ability, can easily TPK a level 10 party, meaning it's not because of the ability that the Lich is decimating encounters, all this ability does is make it much more easy to wombo combo a party. Meanwhile, if this was inverted (i.e. the Lich is actually a terrible spellcaster), the ability is practically useless or "bare minimum" because enemies will always succeed or critically succeed their saves.
And really, if a Lich is that powerful in comparison, they probably won't find a need to burn such a nice ability right off the bat; they will likely only do so in a time of necessity, such as if they have to flee, they get Slowed themselves, or they are seriously pressed against a strong enemy. After all, if they burn it now, and it turns out they would need it later, it would be a poor use of a powerful ability.
Really, if I was a Lich (or GMing a Lich fight) I wouldn't waste my once per day any spell ability on double castings of Chain Lightning. I would assume that my innate abilities plus great spellcasting will allow me to keep pace with any group of adventurers I encounter.
What you keep the free action casting is to cast 5th level translocate if you are going to go down.
I would also note that Paizo did pull back on the Lich difficulty in the remaster. Siphon Soul (drained +1 on failure) is much friendlier to PCs than Paralyzing Touch (1 round on failure).
I really don't think these things correlate. The only reason you think the ability is overpowered is because the array of modifiers is likewise overpowered. A Lich, with or without this ability, can easily TPK a level 10 party, meaning it's not because of the ability that the Lich is decimating encounters, all this ability does is make it much more easy to wombo combo a party. Meanwhile, if this was inverted (i.e. the Lich is actually a terrible spellcaster), the ability is practically useless or "bare minimum" because enemies will always succeed or critically succeed their saves.
And really, if a Lich is that powerful in comparison, they probably won't find a need to burn such a nice ability right off the bat; they will likely only do so in a time of necessity, such as if they have to flee, they get Slowed themselves, or they are seriously pressed against a strong enemy. After all, if they burn it now, and it turns out they would need it later, it would be a poor use of a powerful ability.
Wait, I thought you said earlier that this monster almost never TPKs even with the free action spell. Now you're saying that it frequently TPKs even without the free action spell? And you're also saying that the lich is so well off that it would just forgo using the free action spell in favor of "saving it for later?" And that's somehow not a huge red flag indicating that RAI it should work more like Drain Bonded Item?
Wait, I thought you said earlier that this monster almost never TPKs even with the free action spell. Now you're saying that it frequently TPKs even without the free action spell? And you're also saying that the lich is so well off that it would just forgo using the free action spell in favor of "saving it for later?" And that's somehow not a huge red flag indicating that RAI it should work more like Drain Bonded Item?I really don't think these things correlate. The only reason you think the ability is overpowered is because the array of modifiers is likewise overpowered. A Lich, with or without this ability, can easily TPK a level 10 party, meaning it's not because of the ability that the Lich is decimating encounters, all this ability does is make it much more easy to wombo combo a party. Meanwhile, if this was inverted (i.e. the Lich is actually a terrible spellcaster), the ability is practically useless or "bare minimum" because enemies will always succeed or critically succeed their saves.
And really, if a Lich is that powerful in comparison, they probably won't find a need to burn such a nice ability right off the bat; they will likely only do so in a time of necessity, such as if they have to flee, they get Slowed themselves, or they are seriously pressed against a strong enemy. After all, if they burn it now, and it turns out they would need it later, it would be a poor use of a powerful ability.
I am saying the monster doesn't do a 1 round TPK with this ability, and that even the base monster can TPK a Level 10 party by itself over the course of several rounds.
In that case, it definitely doesn't need the ability to cast a 2-3 action spell as a free action, right?
In that case, it definitely doesn't need the ability to cast a 2-3 action spell as a free action, right?
Look, I don't think or worry about the balance concerns of the game, that is Paizo's job to do, if it's somehow bad, go complain to them.
The creature has been published with the same ability twice in a row. If it wasn't intended to work that way, it would have been errata'd by now. Plus, we know they have made changes to the creature, so it is not like they haven't looked at it since it was published in the first Beastiary. And the GM can still certainly customize the creature to have an alternate ability in place of it if they so choose, so acting like it's broken or that it can't be fixed or worked around is absurd.
Either way, my contribution to and my patience in this thread has been worn, I am done responding any further, since the original question has been answered concisely, and debating the ethics of scaling limited use abilities is not going anywhere.