Weapon Runes, Upgrades, and Customizations: Some Musings.

[Squark]

So, Parhfinder 2e has long had a problem where runes that add damage crowd out any other kind of rune, and it looks like this is the case in the playtest, too. But one place I noticed that PF2 actually avoided a pitfall that the SF2 playtest is falling into comes from Pathfinder having an avenue to improve weapons besides runes (Well, improve guns and crossbows, anyway): Weapon Customizations.

In the SF2 Playtest, Bipods, Silencers, Sights, and scopes all use precious upgrade slots that are filled from level 7+ with damage upgrades. But a PF2 sniper can add a large bore barrel, a tripod, and a scope to their arquebus, all while still filling the gun's property rune slots with as many damage runes as their potency rune will allow.

And the thing is, the devs don't even have to use the existing system. All we need is to add a column that indicates how many upgrade slots a particular upgrade takes up, and make mundane weapon attachments take up 0 slots where appropriate. So a basic darkvision scope would take 0 upgrade slots, but a magitech scope that allows the sniper to see through obstacles and then teleports a bullet directly to the target still would require an upgrade slot.

(I'd also like to see weapon damage runes/upgrades separated from utility or niche stuff like returning, merciful, etc., but that's another topic thay I think has already been brought up.

[Teridax]

I'd say that if you're making customizations in the same vein as with PF2e's firearms, you wouldn't even need those to take upgrade slots. Firearm customizations let you attach one customization option per type, while still leaving room for property runes. You could have something similar for guns and minor customizations, and while it wouldn't solve the problem of damage property runes, it would still offer a bit more room for other options.

[moosher12]

Agreed. I like the idea that more mundane things like scopes, bayonets, flashlights, and muzzle attachments and the like, can be added to a weapon, with more moderate effects. The idea that your typical gun has no picatinny rail- or MLOK-equivalent attachment points by Starfinder is stunning to me.

But let the weapons have, if not runes, then special tech or magic upgrades that give the firearm rune-like powers well beyond what's expected of a scope or a flashlight. Something like Animated Intelligence makes sense to be a rune slot, or the Fear Projector, but not a Uniclamp. or a Sniper's Scope.

[Trashloot]

moosher12 wrote:

Agreed. I like the idea that more mundane things like scopes, bayonets, flashlights, and muzzle attachments and the like, can be added to a weapon, with more moderate effects. The idea that your typical gun has no picatinny rail- or MLOK-equivalent attachment points by Starfinder is stunning to me.

But let the weapons have, if not runes, then special tech or magic upgrades that give the firearm rune-like powers well beyond what's expected of a scope or a flashlight. Something like Animated Intelligence makes sense to be a rune slot, or the Fear Projector, but not a Uniclamp. or a Sniper's Scope.

The uniclamp exists. It allows you to attach anything to your weapon. Do you mean something like this? I mean you don't get a bayonett but you could uniclamp a sword to your weapon ^^.

[moosher12]

Read the bottom paragraph.

[Trashloot]

Sry im stupid xD.

[serithal]

I absolutely agree that we should be able to add runes to the new weapons, and that some upgrades s can count as runes for how many runes you can have on a weapon

[moosher12]

Somewhat also agreed. I don't know. I like the idea of tech upgrades, but frankly I want an avenue for runes on tech weapons. There's a certain fantasy to a magically infused 1911 that is slightly harder to meet here.

I also feel that trying to have two seperate systems that are similar but still very different complicates things a bit more than it needs to be. We are reprinting, for example, expyies of the shock and fire runes, when for the same price, you can just have a shock or a fire rune. And we are having rune equivalent upgrades competing with something as mundane as adding a bipod.

[Perpdepog]

Squark wrote:

So, Parhfinder 2e has long had a problem where runes that add damage crowd out any other kind of rune, and it looks like this is the case in the playtest, too. But one place I noticed that PF2 actually avoided a pitfall that the SF2 playtest is falling into comes from Pathfinder having an avenue to improve weapons besides runes (Well, improve guns and crossbows, anyway): Weapon Customizations.

In the SF2 Playtest, Bipods, Silencers, Sights, and scopes all use precious upgrade slots that are filled from level 7+ with damage upgrades. But a PF2 sniper can add a large bore barrel, a tripod, and a scope to their arquebus, all while still filling the gun's property rune slots with as many damage runes as their potency rune will allow.

And the thing is, the devs don't even have to use the existing system. All we need is to add a column that indicates how many upgrade slots a particular upgrade takes up, and make mundane weapon attachments take up 0 slots where appropriate. So a basic darkvision scope would take 0 upgrade slots, but a magitech scope that allows the sniper to see through obstacles and then teleports a bullet directly to the target still would require an upgrade slot.

(I'd also like to see weapon damage runes/upgrades separated from utility or niche stuff like returning, merciful, etc., but that's another topic thay I think has already been brought up.

Interestingly, I suspect the firearm and crossbow customization system was inherited from SF1E, which had a similar system called Weapon Accessories.

I definitely agree it'd be valuable to look back at those two systems and consider how they might be different from runes and upgrades. Someone will still be limited by the amount of funds, and their level, when trying to kit out a gun, after all, and I honestly really like the rail system that weapon accessories brought to the table, where larger, two-handed weapons had four slots, and smaller weapons had two.

I'm not too bothered one way or another if runes are reprinted as tech upgrades because, at the end of the day, I can always pick a rune, say it's tech now, and roll with it. I also understand why they're in the book. SF2E is meant to be a stand-alone product, and the initial runes made in PF2E's core books will naturally be some of the first things folks will think of when wanting to upgrade their weapons, so it stands to reason that those same options would appear in SF2E. It's mildly annoying, but that's the price that's paid for having a stand-alone game.