Witchwarper seems... pretty boring

[Chocolate Milkshake]

Okay so first off I should probably say I'm not super into the crunchy side of things so I can't comment on whether the Witchwarper is viable in its current state or whether what I want out of the class is viable, but I read the rules for it in the playtest, it kind of just... doesn't really deliver on what I envisioned it to be.

It's a bit difficult to articulate, but when I read about the Quantum Field ability, the first thing that came to mind was using it to torment enemies with crowd control and environmental manipulation. Things like altering gravity, dishing out combat maneuvers, and preventing people from entering or exiting the field. Instead, it seems like most of the utility that comes out of deploying the field comes from the paradox bonus effect and enabling some reactions.

And, in general, most of the feats seem kind of... not very flavorful. The Mystic gets cool, thematic abilities like draining your own life force to fuel your HP distribution system while the Witchwarper's feats are kinda... the best way I can describe it is 'economical'. They seem to focus pretty heavily on not wasting actions or spell slots. Which is probably inherited from the Precog, but I still think makes for a pretty uninteresting feat when the same word count could be going to something like filling the Quantum Field with a high-pitched ringing noise or something.

Also, maybe this is just me, but the anchor half of the Witchwarper's chassis and related feats are kind of giving neurodivergent vibes and I've gotta say I'm not a huge fan.

EDIT: Read the little side note and apparently I was right about the neurodivergent themes. Please don't do this.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

qt are not just weak but also too small

inspire courage start with 60 emanation so they are class defining feature at level 1

qt start at 15 emanation and need level 6 feat to enlarge level 10 feat to give to martial as aura

that is terrible feat and action tax

[SuperBidi]

In my opinion, the issue you have comes from a difference in expectation.

Witchwarper is a base class and as such I understand why Paizo chose to make it first and foremost a full caster. As such the witchwarpy abilities are rather limited.

I personally like its design.

[Teridax]

I have to agree with a lot of the criticism. Whereas the Mystic integrates their class features smoothly into their spellcasting and gets to feel distinct from other casters as a result, the Witchwarper's features mostly feel like a collection of gimmicks that feel largely separated from their slot spells, and the end result is a class that I think doesn't feel all that unique or functional despite the incredible theme they're working with. I will also say that even though I myself am autistic and do appreciate good representation, seeing the Witchwarper coded as both "the neurodivergent class" and "the weirdo who doesn't really fit in this universe" registers as a bit problematic to me, and makes me a little uncomfortable. My specific criticisms are as follows:

Quantum Field needing to be dropped then sustained to be moved around until level 6, where you then need a feat for this basic convenience, means you can easily end up having your Quantum Field stuck in a place where it no longer does anything.

Each subclass's QF effect doesn't really interact much with spells at all.

Anchors generally don't seem to do much that feels like a core class feature, and feel more like feats.

The Restorative Recollection action on the Core Memories anchor does not work RAW against stuns, because you can't act while stunned and lose actions as soon as your turn begins.

There seems to be this weird reliance on class DC for quantum field effects that does little except make those worse at levels 19-20. It seems the developers wanted to include some legacy design where the Witchwarper's good with grenades (which are included in the Spellsurge Ammo feat at level 4), but this implementation looks unnecessarily convoluted for what could, again, just be a feat.

Zone effects don't explicitly state how long they last: for most of the zone effects I assume they last for the same duration as QF itself, but that assumption doesn't work for Radiant Zone, which looks more like a one-time effect.

Zone Overlap looks unlikely to scale well with future zone feats (it'd have to be edited each time), and I think it would be better to list the Zone Overlap upgrade directly in each zone feat's entry.

There are a few feats that have you roll for random damage types and effects. This is perhaps more a matter of taste, but I'm not a big fan of rolling for the

Quantum Negation lacks an action cost.

Warp spells are all over the place. Some have a specific range, others happen specifically within the Quantum Field, and many of them seem to have nothing to do with QF at all.

So really, despite having this amazing potential as a class who smashes entire realities together, the Witchwarper's design feels a bit loosey-goosey right now, with their defining class features feeling more like an afterthought. I'd want the class to be focused much more on a Quantum Field mechanic I'd like to be more impactful and properly synergistic with spells. Stuff I'd suggest:

Let the Witchwarper move their Quantum Field every time they Sustain it.

Have all of the Witchwarper's spells work only within their Quantum Field, but have QF override the original spell's range. For example, if you have a cantrip with a range of only 30 feet, you could cast it more than 100 feet away thanks to your QF.

Have each subclass's QF effect modify your spells, while perhaps offering a unique action you can do to targets within your QF as well (that would also Sustain your QF).

Shift warp spells to cost a single action and Sustain your QF, so that you can use those spells alongside your slot spells.

Drop the Witchwarper's class DC progression, but instead have QF feats use your spell save DC, and instead have Spellsurge Ammo let you use your class DC for the DC of the grenade you throw.

There's probably more that ought to be done (Anchors ought to be low-level feats, the class should probably be a 6 HP/level cloth caster, and perhaps even also a 3-slot caster in exchange for supercharged QF effects), but the above are the main suggestions I'd make to improve the class.

[Xenocrat]

You buy QF functionality with some feats. Difficult terrain at 1 (2 if not human), daze/blind at 4, damage if you move at 6 or 8, can’t escape at 8, darkness and confusion at 10, enhancements to all of these at 16.
The sustain feat at 6 is only necessary to move an active zone effect around, otherwise you drop and recreate a basic one rather than sustain. At 6th having the move on sustain plus dazzle/blind is great enemy suppression/action stealing.

The QF is also allowing you to have very powerful focus spells by tying them to it being up and sometimes to its position.

[Teridax]

The QF functionality you buy with feats is largely capped by the zone trait up until level 16. In general, 2e's design philosophy is to make core class features good as a baseline, rather than weak and in need of feat support to become worthwhile.

Dismissing then restarting a Quantum Field costs a massive two actions, possibly more if you want to reapply the zone effects and other benefits that get dropped when you Dismiss the effect. The alternative is to let the effect run out and only reapply it on your turn after. In both cases, I would say this is far too cumbersome a requirement to make effective use of the Witchwarper's defining feature, particularly when the default for many sustained spells like floating flame is to move their localized area each time you Sustain it.

While I think it is good to have strong focus spells capped by the need to have QF up, I think it would be even better if those focus spells consistently related to QF itself. Right now, there are lots of self-buff effects that have nothing at all to do with the Witchwarper's Quantum Field or its placement. I also don't think strong focus spells are enough to justify a lack of synergy between QF and slot spells, as the two essentially don't interact at all.

[Perpdepog]

Teridax wrote:

Anchors generally don't seem to do much that feels like a core class feature, and feel more like feats.

Actually, why don't we get more anchors as feats? Getting more numerous and more powerful anchor actions would also help the witchwarper's turns become more flexible, since you'll have more options for sustaining your quantum field.

[Teridax]

I'd actually support having lots more anchors, and I think feats would be the better way of supporting that. I'm not a big fan of anchors as class features, because it feeds into the problematic "being neurodivergent gives you superpowers" trope the class leans into, but if you had feats to stabilize yourself with a core memory, root yourself in reality with a physical object, and so on and so forth in ways that would also sustain your Quantum Field, that I think would both avoid that issue and enable many more ways of playing with your QF via feats.

[DMurnett]

Teridax wrote:

I'd actually support having lots more anchors, and I think feats would be the better way of supporting that. I'm not a big fan of anchors as class features, because it feeds into the problematic "being neurodivergent gives you superpowers" trope the class leans into, but if you had feats to stabilize yourself with a core memory, root yourself in reality with a physical object, and so on and so forth in ways that would also sustain your Quantum Field, that I think would both avoid that issue and enable many more ways of playing with your QF via feats.

Your milage may vary but I know for a fact being neurodivergent gives me superpowers. No allistic could tell you more about Five Nights at Freddy's than me and as far as I'm concerned that's a (really shitty) superpower. I like my class of choice reflecting that. But additional anchors as feats (or even just generally anchors being feats) is something I am in support of.

[Chocolate Milkshake]

DMurnett wrote:

Your milage may vary but I know for a fact being neurodivergent gives me superpowers. No allistic could tell you more about Five Nights at Freddy's than me and as far as I'm concerned that's a (really shitty) superpower. I like my class of choice reflecting that. But additional anchors as feats (or even just generally anchors being feats) is something I am in support of.

Good for you if you like how they're trying to spin it, but I personally find Paizo gamifying neurodivergent traits to be pretty offensive. If I want to make a ND character, I'd rather do it my way.

[Teridax]

So, for me, I do in fact quite like having some of my characters reflect some of my own traits, so it’s nice having a character that’s incidentally autistic or gay and having that work in a larger world where more people are queer or neurodivergent. If I can pick a feat where I spin an object to center myself, that’s fun, because that can be easily coded as a fidget toy while someone else taking it can make an Inception reference.

What I’m less a fan of, however, is the general media trope that all autistic people are basically Rain Man-style savants or otherwise superpowered as a result of their neurodivergence. I find the trope commodifies neurodivergence and expresses its value as a function of usefulness to others, while leaving no room for neurodivergent people who don’t have those exceptional and often unrealistic abilities. The Witchwarper flirts a bit too closely with this trope right now, in my opinion, because anchors as a core class feature and a lot of flavor text coded for neurodivergence all create a class whose superpower is being neurodivergent. I love playing an autistic superpowered guy; I don’t feel right playing an “autistic superpowers” guy.

[Mike Kimmel]

The intent with the class’s various neurodivergence-coded aspects isn’t to present neurodivergence as a superpower. That’s a trope that I find problematic as well, and it’s something the team is well aware of.

A witchwarper’s powers come from their exposure to a paradox (e.g. “I am from another timeline”), not from the way their brain works. A witchwarper does magic in much the same way a wizard does; by understanding it. But instead of understanding magic formulas, a witchwarper understands the nature of their paradox. An anchor, whatever form it takes, helps ground the witchwarper in reality even as they use their paradox to create reality-altering magic.

None of these abilities are intended to be the “result” or “effect” of a character’s neurodivergence. The intent is to invite players to associate their anchors or other abilities with whatever degree of neurodivergence that they wish; but it’s just that, an invitation. Of course, a character of any class can be neurodivergent. The hope is to provide some representation, not to present game mechanics for any particular neurodivergent traits.

All that said, intent and impact are different things. “I didn’t mean it that way” isn’t a very good excuse when one causes offense; if the attempt at representation is just too close to being a bad trope, that’s important feedback. We can’t really know if we’re having the intended impact without hearing from people who are playing the game, so we appreciate all the playtest feedback we continue to receive.

[Teridax]

For starters, it is worth noting that while one offending post was removed, the actual T.R.A.S.H. post contrasting neurodivergent Witchwarpers with "non-obsessive", "well-adjusted", and "not weird" Witchwarpers remains. This is perhaps just an unfortunate coincidence given that I doubt Paizo's developers also moderate these forums, but it colors this discussion all the same.

Second, while it is very good to hear that the Starfriends are conscious of the tropes around neurodivergence and special powers, and did not intend to replicate them, I still do think the problem remains. I'll share a bit I've said that I think still relates to the above:

Teridax wrote:

I will also say that even though I myself am autistic and do appreciate good representation, seeing the Witchwarper coded as both "the neurodivergent class" and "the weirdo who doesn't really fit in this universe" registers as a bit problematic to me, and makes me a little uncomfortable.

To reiterate, my experience as a neurodivergent person has been that of someone who often felt like I was from another world, because my mannerisms and my focused interests set me apart from my peers, who often referred to me as "weird" and excluded me for the way I was. Thankfully, my experience now has been different for quite some time, because I've found a community of people, many of whom are also neurodivergent, who instead support and celebrate me. I don't feel great about the class explicitly written to "invite" neurodivergence to also be the "weirdo from another world" class, because that to me perpetuates the idea that the archetypal neurodivergent character is also the one who just doesn't fit in society.

Part of what also bothers me is that this "invitation" also comes across to me as profoundly unnecessary, and not really the best way to do representation: I think Paizo has done a great job of doing representation so far by making several of their iconics LGBTQ+, disabled, and diverse in many other different ways, while also writing stories about their world that feature a diverse range of people who all fit. I already think some classes like Pathfinder's Investigator "invite" neurodivergence perfectly fine without being explicitly coded as such, and in general I have no trouble roleplaying my characters as queer and/or neurodivergent in Paizo's products, because Paizo's worlds celebrate diversity and feature characters who are similar to me. I don't need a "neurodivergent class" to play a neurodivergent character, and as Xenocrat's post on this thread indicates, coding neurodivergence into an entire character class like this can easily backfire by perpetuating negative stereotypes instead of countering them. You could remove the bits that explicitly "invite" neurodivergence on the Witchwarper, and the Witchwarper would remain a class that'd be very easy to roleplay as neurodivergent. I don't see the need to make a class "invite" being roleplayed as neurodivergent this much any more than there'd be a need to have separate classes written to "invite" being roleplayed as LGBTQ+, a person of color, a disabled peson, a woman, and so on, because that's not really how representation works IMO, and that kind of delineation easily invites segregation.

[Rue Dickey]

Hey folks - thanks for bringing this thread to my attention. Some posts have been removed.

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