I've been toying around with a scythe specialist fighter and trying different builds, and I've come to ask advice. For the purposes of this discussion let's assume the following:
1. A human character
2. A PC
3. Using traits
4. Using options presented in the CRB, APG, UC, and ARG (as well as UM in the extremely unlikely event that something important could be found there)
5. A GM who likes to have opponents move around a lot, so mobility remains a factor and iterative attacks are not always assumed
6. Some degree of out-of-combat utility is obviously desirable, though I'm not wholly certain it pertains to this discussion
7. Access to MageMart is not assumed, so builds relying on a specific magic item (or items) aren't optimal
8. I'm perfectly fine with dumping a stat for RP purposes, but not for optimization, so don't assume I'll be willing to carry a 7 in anything
I narrow my choice to three broad possibilities: the standard fighter with no archetype, the two-handed fighter, and the weapon master. Are there others I've missed that I ought to consider, and is there one that's CLEARLY the best option? Likewise, is there one that's clearly the WORST option?
The base fighter remains a strong option primarily because of #5, above. The archetypes both give up armor training, which means wearing anything other than light armor limits mobility. Mobility is obviously not the only determining factor here, but many suggested fighter builds write it off far more readily than I'm comfortable with in my games. That's not to say armor training is inviolate -- it's just one important factor among many.
The two-handed fighter gets big points for increasing the damage of the scythe, and when you're using a scythe you're all about adding points to damage that can then be quadrupled on a crit. This archetype especially pump up Power Attack, and a scythe fighter should be Power Attacking at every opportunity. It also spreads its benefits out over the life of the character, which is nice.
The weapon master limits primary utility to a single weapon, thus cutting down on the fighter's martial versatility. However, since a scythe specialist will be using a scythe all the time, that's less of a problem. It gives a rapidly-escalating to-hit and damage bonus with the specialist weapon, which is good; however, most of the other archetype features seem underwhelming to me -- Weapon Guard is situational at best, Mirror Move is essentially useless when dealing with an uncommon weapon like a scythe, and the others, while nice, don't come until the typical campaign is either done or nearly done. Am I missing something here?
There's something about the idea of a Gladiator build with performance abilities that strikes me as thematically fun for a sweeping, mobile master of the scythe.
You're not just slicing the baddies, you're also looking incredibly glorious in the process.
With what uve described, esp the high movement maybe only getting 1 attack type guy i would go 2handed or possibly even lorewarden.. The first due to the reason uve already stated and the later due to ur restricted to light armor, so ull always have full movement but u gain some nice benifits that offset that.. To me weapon master is more for high crit range weapon builds not 19/20 at most.. With the lorewarden build u could focus tripping oppenents and cleaving them apart afterwards, which gives u some sort of control.. If your more into doing massive damage every hit than 2hand archtype is for u, while a more mobile/cmb with still very good damage build would be the lorewarden.. What point buy, starting level and rough end level are yall going for?
There's something about the idea of a Gladiator build with performance abilities that strikes me as thematically fun for a sweeping, mobile master of the scythe.
You're not just slicing the baddies, you're also looking incredibly glorious in the process.
While I'd love to play (or run!) a gladiator game, my reading of Performance Combat is that it gives essentially no bonuses in a non-performance situation. I don't mind investing one feat in looking cool, but a whole build around it? :-)
With what uve described, esp the high movement maybe only getting 1 attack type guy i would go 2handed or possibly even lorewarden.. The first due to the reason uve already stated and the later due to ur restricted to light armor, so ull always have full movement but u gain some nice benifits that offset that.. To me weapon master is more for high crit range weapon builds not 19/20 at most.. With the lorewarden build u could focus tripping oppenents and cleaving them apart afterwards, which gives u some sort of control.. If your more into doing massive damage every hit than 2hand archtype is for u, while a more mobile/cmb with still very good damage build would be the lorewarden.. What point buy, starting level and rough end level are yall going for?
Wow, Lore Warden. I never even considered that (or knew it existed) because I don't have that book. But it certainly makes for an interesting build.
I'm assuming a 20-point build and an AP character, so starting at 1 and going to wherever the AP leaves you off. Well, assuming I don't die along the way. I have to lose a character in a campaign or I feel cheated. :-D
Well most AP's got to ard 15th-17th level.. Do you think ull have WBL from the chart or less?
I played a one-shot at one point with a scythe fighter. Background as a farmer. A couple of thoughts:
Trip is really good in most situations. This is especially true in high-mobility games, where it eats an opponent's action to stand up. Combat Expertise, Imp Trip, Greater Trip, and Combat Reflexes can go a long way here. Greater Trip is really a turning point in terms of effectiveness. As a Fighter, your numbers get very high for CMB because your Weapon Training, Weapon Focus, etc. will count towards the trip CMB. If you can basically guarantee the trip on most foes, they immediately provoke AoOs for being tripped from the Greater Trip feat. This gives you action economy in a mobility-based combat and utility in general. Highly useful.
Improved Critical. You knew it was coming. Highly necessary if you want that x4 crit multiplier to count for anything.
Two-Hand Fighter and Weapon Master are both really good archetypes. I prefer Weapon Master if you know you're going to lean towards a single weapon category. You get Weapon Training 2 levels earlier, which is really good. With Deadly Critical at 13, you can increase the scythe to a x5 weapon. If you get to 20, it can go up to x6 if you use Deadly Critical due to the Weapon Mastery class feature.
RE: stats, what are your build rules? In a 20 point buy, many fighters like a double dump on Int/Cha, but I have a preference towards 14+2/14/14/12/14/8. This will give you 4 skills per level before Favored Class, a decent Will save, and solid physicals. You can be highly survivable with this outlay. I have a preference against builds that push Str higher than 16 as it wreaks havok on your non-damage utility. Let the Barbarian have 20 Str, IMO.
Well most AP's got to ard 15th-17th level.. Do you think ull have WBL from the chart or less?
We've been playing Paizo APs, so assume less. In some cases, much less (we're playing Serpent Skull right now and we're paupers, though we're still kicking butt and taking dental records).
Trip is really good in most situations. This is especially true in high-mobility games, where it eats an opponent's action to stand up. Combat Expertise, Imp Trip, Greater Trip, and Combat Reflexes can go a long way here. Greater Trip is really a turning point in terms of effectiveness. As a Fighter, your numbers get very high for CMB because your Weapon Training, Weapon Focus, etc. will count towards the trip CMB. If you can basically guarantee the trip on most foes, they immediately provoke AoOs for being tripped from the Greater Trip feat. This gives you action economy in a mobility-based combat and utility in general. Highly useful.
Very useful indeed, though from the APs I've read and the monsters I'm familiar with, the CMDs skyrocket as you go up in levels. Still, against character class opponents, it's incredibly useful.
Improved Critical. You knew it was coming. Highly necessary if you want that x4 crit multiplier to count for anything.
Oh, absolutely. When I'm building a full-BAB character I almost always find myself gravitating toward that one anyway.
Two-Hand Fighter and Weapon Master are both really good archetypes. I prefer Weapon Master if you know you're going to lean towards a single weapon category. You get Weapon Training 2 levels earlier, which is really good. With Deadly Critical at 13, you can increase the scythe to a x5 weapon. If you get to 20, it can go up to x6 if you use Deadly Critical due to the Weapon Mastery class feature.
Absolutely no chance of ever getting to 20, I'd day, and even 1-13 is...a stretch, honestly. I tend to tire of a character after 10 or so levels of play and start trying to get him killed...
RE: stats, what are your build rules? In a 20 point buy, many fighters like a double dump on Int/Cha, but I have a preference towards 14+2/14/14/12/14/8. This will give you 4 skills per level before Favored Class, a decent Will save, and solid physicals. You can be highly survivable with this outlay. I have a preference against builds that push Str higher than 16 as it wreaks havok on your non-damage utility. Let the Barbarian have 20 Str, IMO.
We don't have any hard-and-fast rules, though I personally only dump stats for RP purposes, not to get the extra points. I do often enjoy playing people with an extremely low stat though, like my gorgeous-but-klutzy DEX 6 oracle...
If you're not assuming iterative attacks, the Vital Strike feat line would be good. You get to roll 1 (or more, later on) extra set of damage dice with a standard action. It doesn't add any more to your bonuses, but a normal Vital Strike with a scythe would be 4d4 + modifiers. There are two steps up which add an extra set each time, so at Greater Vital Strike you're doing 8d4 with a scythe.
However, this chain provides no bonus at all when performing iterative attacks. It's a decent replacement when iteratives aren't avaialable, but since it doesn't add extra strenght, presicision or magic bonuses it is less effective than interatives when they're avaialable.
Hope this helps!
As things shake out, there end up being lots of opportunities for iterative attacks, but all the GMs in the group (we rotate) play the opposition as being smart in avoiding them when they have options to do so, since they usually aren't keen on being butchered like chickens. But then, as players, we're all keen on boxing opponents in and pinning them down, so it balances out.
8. I'm perfectly fine with dumping a stat for RP purposes, but not for optimization, so don't assume I'll be willing to carry a 7 in anything
I agree- I have to say- I can’t see anything very heroic about drooling foolish idiots that have the social graces and looks of a flatulent warthog.
If you are getting a 20 pt buy, there’s simply no reason to have any stat under 10 (except for racial adj).
Str 16+2 (Hu or H-orc)
Dex 14
Con14
Int, Wis & Cha all 10. Sure, for a little role-playing you can make the Wis 12 and the Cha 8 for the silent type.
A build for 17th level Lorewarden i think would be good and i might actually try now lol..
Str-16+4lv+6belt = 26
Dex-14+6belt = 20
Con-14+6belt = 20
Int-13+1book+4headband = 18
Wis-12+4Headband = 16
Cha-8
Feats:
H-Power Attack
1st-Combat Reflexex, Bonus: Combat Expertise
2nd-Dodge
3rd-Mobility
4th-Spring Attack
5th-Whirlwind Attack
6th-Imp. Trip
7th-G. Trip
8th-Felling Smash
9th-Lunge
10th-Weapon Focus
11th-G. Weapon Focus
12th-Weapon Spec.
13th-G. Weapon Spec.
14th-Critical Focus
15th-Staggering Critical
16th-Critical Mastery
17th-Stunning Critical
WBL for 17th is 410k:
+5 Keen Scythe
+5 Mithril Breatplate
+6 Str/Dex/Con Belt
+4 Wis/Int Headband
+5 Cloak of Resistance
+3 Amulet of Natural Armor
+3 Ring of Protection
+1 Dex Tome(used)
Gloves of Dueling
Boots of Speed
=399.5 Gold Spent, so 10.5k left to spend on w/e
To hit: +17BAB,+8Str,+6Weapon Train,+5Weapon,+2Focus,+2Circ.Know Thy Enemy,+1Haste,-5Power Attack
+36/+36/+31/+26/+21 for 2d4+44 19/20x4 or
1 Attack +36 2d4+44+Felling Smash Trip CMB +44 and if Succeed attack
+36 2d4+44
You could have up to 8 skill ranks per level with 2 skills at max ranks from the headband, i would also pick a trait that gives me perception as a class skill, there are afew.. Skill wise i would do:
Acrobatics-max
Survival-max
Perception-max
Knowledge Dung-max
Knowledge Local-max
Knowledge Nature-max
Knowledge Planes-max
Knowledge Religion-max
Knowledge Arcana-max
I would spend my Fav Class bonus not on a skill point but on +cmd to disarm and sunder, because ur trip cmd is already really high..
Hope this all helps!
*build snipped for brevity*
You left off Improved Critical with your scythe! Gotta have that at the earliest moment!
I suppose you could afford to put a point or 2 into climb and swim as well.. Mobility is your freind with this build, Lunging Whirlwind Attacks that trip all opponents w/in 10', or Felling Smash Spring Attack trips etc.. A good investment would gettin permanent Expeditious Retreat on the boots for a 60' move all the time and its cheap, only 4k.. i would prob gtet perma protection from evil put on somthing as well to detire dominates etc, again only 4k and although they could be dispelled for the money it cant be beat..
its called the keen enchantment bro.. Feats are to hard to come by when a +1 enhancement gets u the same thing..
I agree- I have to say- I can’t see anything very heroic about drooling foolish idiots that have the social graces and looks of a flatulent warthog.
If you are getting a 20 pt buy, there’s simply no reason to have any stat under 10 (except for racial adj).
Str 16+2 (Hu or H-orc)
Dex 14
Con14
Int, Wis & Cha all 10. Sure, for a little role-playing you can make the Wis 12 and the Cha 8 for the silent type.
As an aside, I'm having a blast with my klutzy oracle, and I have a great build in mind for a wizard (conjuror) who's so hideously deformed that he has to wear a bag over his head. Overcoming a serious liability on the way to becoming a hero makes you even more heroic, IMO. I just can't dump a stat without an excellent, background-driven RP reason.
its called the keen enchantment bro.. Feats are to hard to come by when a +1 enhancement gets u the same thing..
Fair enough. I've just learned not to rely on the availability of a MageMart within convenient driving distance in an AP. :-)
Yea the build i posted doesnt rely on any givin item to work. I just built it with "assumed wbl for 17th", it certainly could work less beefed up.. Although a +1 keen scythe is 8k, id hope that would be avaiable at some point..