Playing Soldiers in old Golarion

[Raxmei]

A spinoff from a thread in the Operative subforum. Obviously the Soldier has some issues when removed from Starfinder's material culture, what with a lot of the class's kit revolving around weapons that don't exist in the Lost Omens campaign setting. So, how would we go about this if we had to?

Right off the bat we can narrow the top two fighting styles down to Armor Storm or Close Quarters, though Bombard has its uses. Action Hero has nothing to recommend it in a setting without automatic weapons.

Armor Storm gets us a kind of interesting Athletics tank. You can do athletics maneuvers hands-free while whirling a greatsword around, plus suppressed enemies do less damage to you.

Close Quarters is a Punitive Strike tank. You can also poach some of what Armor Storm does with the right choice of weapon. A Gnoll soldier with Chomp and a war flail can grapple, trip, and disarm while losing only one die size of damage compared to greatsword, and if you want trip and reach we all know about the guisarme.

Finally Bombard's features actually work with Whirling Swipe. It basically lets you use reach weapons without a care about hitting your allies and applies the suppression debuff more reliably.

Feats: Beyond the obvious Whirling Swipe at level 1, melee soldier is really lacking feat support. Most soldier class feats assume you're using a gun. You're probably going to be taking an archetype. Wrestler is a strong choice, particularly for Armor Storm.

[moosher12]

I was thinking on it. And I think a good aspect is to focus on the Soldier's role as a two-handed weapon master. Basically, if the Guardian is a class version of the Stalwart Defender, the Soldier can be the class version of the Mauler. The time to be like Guts, or a Monster Hunter Greatsword or Hammer master.

These were the approaches I came up with

• Soldier: Make Whirling Strike a 1-action stance which grants two-handed melee weapons the Area (Burst 5 feet) and Unwieldy traits, and let Primary Target apply to melee Area attacks.

This is to make two-handed combat a bit more dynamic, as it would allow a soldier to use many of its 2- to 3-action class feats with the two-handed weapon.

• Unwieldy Trait: You can’t use more than 1 attack action with an unwieldy weapon per round. You cannot use more than one unwieldy weapon per round.

This unlocks the doshko, allowing you to parry and attack in the same turn (And as an aside, helps fix the two-handed multi-unwieldy weapon problem)

This last one is dubious, as I'm still theory crafting how to add some juice to it:
For firearms, an idea came to me while playing Vermintide with my partner. So, picture this. There are Pathfinder firearms that have the Capacity trait. What if a "Gatling" trait was created, that allowed you to expend all bullets as an Auto-Fire attack with a Capacity firearm, but it still requires the appropriate amount of reloads, so a Capacity 6 firearm would require 6 rounds to reload. Though right now, sheathing to a second gun seems a valid approach.

Essentially, the dynamic would shift where the Melee weapon is a primary tactic, and the ranged weapon is a secondary tactic.

[Teridax]

In a game where the Soldier could exploit splash damage, they'd have more opportunities to interact with Pathfinder's weapons, but assuming no changes to current AoE weapons, if I were to port a Soldier to Pathfinder I'd remove the Suppressing Fire and Primary Target features, and instead make the Soldier's firearm attacks deal splash damage and apply suppression on a hit, or something to that effect. The subclasses would mostly take care of themselves, but a lot of feats would likely have to change in response to this, as many depend on AoE attacks.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Raxmei wrote:

A spinoff from a thread in the Operative subforum. Obviously the Soldier has some issues when removed from Starfinder's material culture, what with a lot of the class's kit revolving around weapons that don't exist in the Lost Omens campaign setting. So, how would we go about this if we had to?

Right off the bat we can narrow the top two fighting styles down to Armor Storm or Close Quarters, though Bombard has its uses. Action Hero has nothing to recommend it in a setting without automatic weapons.

Armor Storm gets us a kind of interesting Athletics tank. You can do athletics maneuvers hands-free while whirling a greatsword around, plus suppressed enemies do less damage to you.

Close Quarters is a Punitive Strike tank. You can also poach some of what Armor Storm does with the right choice of weapon. A Gnoll soldier with Chomp and a war flail can grapple, trip, and disarm while losing only one die size of damage compared to greatsword, and if you want trip and reach we all know about the guisarme.

Finally Bombard's features actually work with Whirling Swipe. It basically lets you use reach weapons without a care about hitting your allies and applies the suppression debuff more reliably.

Feats: Beyond the obvious Whirling Swipe at level 1, melee soldier is really lacking feat support. Most soldier class feats assume you're using a gun. You're probably going to be taking an archetype. Wrestler is a strong choice, particularly for Armor Storm.

These weapons do likely exist in the Lost Omens setting-- Numeria is a thing, lest we forget.

[ElementalofCuteness]

But we know hardly anything about Numeria...

[keftiu]

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

But we know hardly anything about Numeria...

Is that true? We got a Numeria setting book and People of the Stars in 1e, along with a six-volume Numerian adventure path, and have had a few glimpses at setting advancements in 2e Lost Omens stuff since.

[Lord Fyre]

keftiu wrote:

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

But we know hardly anything about Numeria...

Is that true? We got a Numeria setting book and People of the Stars in 1e, along with a six-volume Numerian adventure path, and have had a few glimpses at setting advancements in 2e Lost Omens stuff since.

It might be better to say that we don't know Enough about Numeria.

[Karmagator]

If you are already importing the Soldier, it only makes sense to take its weapons as well.

If Numeria isn't a good enough justification to have one of these weapons, then reflavouring is always a thing. Repeating weapons definitely exist in the setting, as do weird magic guns. Combine the two or maybe throw in some alchemy.

Just because no PF2 book has given us the stats for them doesn't mean someone can't have a prototype or ancient relic lying around.

[moosher12]

Potentially. 1 sp per bullet would make a decent enough balancing point. I'd just say you'd need to increase the price of the weapon itself by 5-10 times. A long air repeater is 9 gp, while a machine gun would cost 8 gp. A machine gun definitely should not cost less than a long air repeater. 4-8 pp sounds reasonable for a machine gun, given it'd be rare Numerian or Stasian technology.

[Karmagator]

Both ideas are something you really don't want to do. What this definitely accomplishes is making your players feel bad and for what?

Especially since the issue of weapon cost completely vanishes at level 2.

[moosher12]

1 sp per bullet is already the cost of repeating firearm ammunition. That's vanilla.

A magazine of 6 air repeater pellets is 6 sp, and a magazine of 8 long air repeater pellets is 8 sp, that's 1 sp per bullet for repeating weapons.

The Air Repeater is 5 gp, and the Long Air Repeater is 9 gp, No semi-automatic or automatic Starfinder gun should cost less than these amounts for one-handed and two-handed variants, respectively, when purchased in Pathfinder.

[Karmagator]

Yeah, so is the 1 sp per bullet cost in SF2. That doesn't make it a good idea. It's still a bad idea. It's just a worse idea in SF2, because automatic weapons eat trough ammo like nothing.

The early game economy doesn't support it in either case and all it does is annoy the player.

There is no upside to doing this.

[moosher12]

The upside is they are getting it in the first place. And the price is cheap, all things considered. Let me pull out the Technology Guide, and the Pathfinder 2E conversion guide to get the 2E costs.

Arc Pistol: 10,000 gp Converted to about 475-650 gp
Dart Gun: 3,000 gp, converted to about 150-230 gp
EMP Pistol: 12,000 gp, converted to about 650-950 gp
Gravity Pistol: 95,000 gp, converted to about 9,300-14,000 gp
Laser Pistol: 10,000 gp, converted to about 475-650 gp
Sonic Pistol: 13,000 gp, converted to about 650-950 gp
Zero Pistol: 10,000 gp, Converted to about 475-650 gp

Compared to this, asking for 20-40 gp is not too bad.

[Karmagator]

"They are getting it in the first place" is a terrible argument. Either you give it to them or you don't. Giving your players something and then punishing them for wanting to use it? How is that in any way a good idea?

Your idea would make the Soldier literally unplayable until level 2 or 3 at least, just because he cannot afford to even buy his weapon. Then the insane ammo cost will pile on top of that. What player would accept that?

In fact, something like this sounds like a really easy way to lose a player.

And comparing games with a completely different economy has absolutely no value. Those numbers are completely arbitrary, they have absolutely no relation.

-

Maybe our groups are very different. But what I can tell you is that if I were the player you told this to? I would straight-up leave that table. And I can't help but be confident that this would be a common reaction.

[moosher12]

Are there not greatswords? Are there not mauls? The Soldier has plenty of room to be a two-handed melee weapons expert.

The second post in this thread is my proposed fixes to really make that side of the Soldier shine. The Soldier does not need guns to be interesting in fantasy, it just needs a more fleshed out melee playstyle. There is your opportunity to be Guts. Your opportunity to carry a greatsword to fight a dragon and swipe away a whole group of foes in a single slash. Amiri could be awesome with the Soldier class.

A Soldier without a gun is not unplayable. Two-handed melee is baked into its chassis. And it can be sharpened to make it an excellent playstyle in the fantasy genre, would Paizo work out the kinks that hold it back.

As for comparing the games. It does have value. The value of living in the world. I don't know about you. But when I run Pathfinder, I run Lost Omens. Which means, the rules of Lost Omens apply. If you are running a custom world, by all means, allow fully automatic firearms. But this is not Lost Omens. In Lost Omens, these are rare and valuable artifacts, easily over 100 gp on the lowest ends.

As for your edit, if you walk into a Pathfinder game that takes place in the Lost Omens Campaign setting and demand items with the Rare trait, I think most GMs would tell you you're better off leaving to find a Starfinder table. You're not entitled to Rare items as a player.

Also, I still have all my players, to whom my Home Rule Document reads as so:

Home Rule Document wrote:

About Starfinder 2E

Starfinder 2E is an upcoming game by Paizo, and the Starfinder 2E playtest is currently available to play. Starfinder 2E is meant to be compatible with Pathfinder 2E, using the same core system. Note that 1 silver piece is equivalent to 1 credit.

In a Pathfinder 2E game, any entry from Starfinder 2E will gain the Rare trait. Certain entries that do not rely on modern or sci-fi technology to function, such as many classes and spells, are more likely to be allowed in a Pathfinder 2E game, subject to GM discretion.

In a Starfinder 2E game, any entry from Pathfinder 2E will gain the Uncommon trait. All Pathfinder weapons, armor, and shields will gain the Archaic trait. All Pathfinder armor will gain the Exposed trait.

When an entry exists in both Pathfinder and Starfinder 2E, use the version in the game you are playing.

[Karmagator]

1) A current Soldier that is build to use a ranged weapon, especially a machinegun, doesn't have the stats or feats for a melee weapon. And melee Soldier is very poorly supported.

2) In this scenario I would have asked if I could play that. You have allowed the stuff with the rare trait, but only in a way that makes them unuseable. Rather than be straight with me and just say "no, this doesn't fit into the setting".

That kind of thinking would have made me lose faith and driven me from your table.

But this is getting a little far from the point and a little too personal, sry.

[moosher12]

I'll talk to you as if I was talking to a player

To the first statement I'd say: I'd really recommend trying a strength build instead. The Soldier won't be able to do all of it's best bells and whistles with a firearm, but if you pick a melee weapon, I've got some home rules to let that work a bit better.

To the second statement I'd say: If you can figure a build that functions without tech items, go for it. If not, afraid I can't allow it. Oh, but if you find something that does require tech, but can be fixed with an mild equivalent stat swap, let me know, I'll see if I can squeeze it in to make it work.

I do work with my players. and try to help them get their goals working. I mean, I have a player playing succubus in my Kingmaker game. Not a nephilim. An actual succubus, using Roll for Combat's Demon ancestry (which I allowed after first asking all of the other players if they were cool with a succubus in the party, and then I greenlit it). I even allowed them to spend their ancestry feat to gain the kitsune's change shape ability so they can safely walk around without incurring the wrath of any passing crusaders on their way to the Worldwound.

I have another player who is born from a thrunian side house member's fling. And when they learned the lore tidbit that their soul was damned to hell, despite being a worshipper of Shelyn, we worked together to find a loophole on how to secure their place elsewhere (by willfully abandoning their Thrunian family namesake and all of its benefits).

I told another player who has a gunsmithing automaton whose backstory says he was in Dongun Hold for the 4000 years they were hiding that I'd allow him to build as far as revolvers and lever action weapons, and that I would personally design such weapons for them. But I told them they would likely not be able to make a modern weapon until they get their hands on ones from Numeria, (which they will get to visit later), to attempt to reverse engineer it, or if they can get their hands on a firearm from Russia once the year hits about 4714 or so.

I would personally give you advice on how to make it work to the best of my ability, and I would also warn if limits would make certain playstyles weak. If you wanted to play an exorcist, I'd say, "Are you sure, there are not a lot of ghosts in this game." for example. But I am honest with my players that I stand firm that I care about the Lost Omens campaign setting, and that I require a degree of plausibility in what I allow.