5-18: Equal Exchanges - Tapestry of the Mind


GM Discussion

2/5 ****

I am currently preparing to run this scenario. The first encounter seems to have two contradictory instructions:

Quote:
However, their resolve is shaken, and Jamimpi will surrender if reduced to low enough health (see Creatures below). A critical success adds 10 to this HP threshold.

and

Quote:
If any PC critically succeeded on the above Request or Coerce checks while trying to get them to stand down, Jamimpi surrenders when reduced to 20 Hit Points (30 for levels 11–12) [...]. Otherwise Jamimpi fights to the death, believing it is the only way to protect Csilla from herself.

Which one would be the correct one to use? I can't follow both instructions.

Later on, there is another contradiction, though a less severe one:

Quote:
If the group obtains a number of these equal to the number of PCs, they trigger the Gug Guardians encounter

and

Quote:
This combat is triggered by either accumulating 5 Observance Points, or[...]

Also, the Observance Points are called Oberservation Points just above the first of the two listed passages on page 10.

4/5 ****

The first part, I didn't see a contradiction.

Here's the full quote.

Scenario wrote:

a successful Diplomacy check to Request or Intimidation

check to Coerce against Jamimpi’s Will DC causes the
naga to pause briefly, considering their arguments before
remaining adamant that they cannot allow the PCs to
pass. However, their resolve is shaken, and Jamimpi will
surrender if reduced to low enough health (see Creatures
below). A critical success adds 10 to this HP threshold.
A critical failure on these checks results in immediate
combat.

If the party successfully Requested/Coerced, the Naga surrenders at 20/30 (+10 for a crit success)

Otherwise they don't surrender and fight to the death.

---

Second part I agree it says 5/# of party members and 10/double. Should probably be party based but not a huge difference either way.

---

One thing to watch out for is the intro from KHW.

Scenario wrote:
If you die within the mindscape, we may not be able to bring your mind back to your body, making reviving you nigh impossible.”

Note there's no actual mechanic for this in the scenario. Death and other conditions should be recoverable normally. It's my opinion that KWH is just overly concerned given the extent of his ritual.

---

2/5 ****

Pirate Rob wrote:

The first part, I didn't see a contradiction.

Here's the full quote.

[...]

If the party successfully Requested/Coerced, the Naga surrenders at 20/30 (+10 for a crit success)

Otherwise they don't surrender and fight to the death.

That would mean that in the second quote I posted, there is simply a "critically" that needs to be ignored? Probably the easiest fix and staying relatively close to the original text.

I noticed the part about the difficulty of recovery as well. But it was not rules text, just flavor text, so I just ignored it.

The final encounter has some issues as well, I think:

1. On high tier, a crit fail on a certain save will most likely outright kill a character. On Low tier it doesn't do that. Why the difference? High Tier Characters are not better equipped to deal with such an ability in any way.

2. The "Endless" ability was changed from 1 minute to 1 hour in both subtiers. That is a good thing, otherwise the fight might happen multiple times (and then likely kill most parties). That change is NOT reflected in the Foundry VTT premium module!

*****

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Also, the scenario has the Vigilant Seal tag, but has no "Faction Notes" which give Reputation with the Vigilant Seal faction under certain circumstances.

Do they automatically get full Rep with Vigilant Seal (from the tag)?

Do they always get 0 Rep with VS (since there is nothing mentioned in the scenario that would give them Rep)?

Do they sometimes get Rep with VS, depending on a particular condition, and if so, what condition?

4/5 ****

The scenario has the tag but the Product Page does not.

I'd assume it's an erroneous tag like 1-05, but your guess is as good as mine.

5/5 *****

There are contradictory instructions on when encounter B1 and 2 occurs.

One part says when its observations points equal to the number of PCs/twice the number (pg 10), another says its 5 or 10 (pg 12).

There are also contradictory instructions about how Observation points are obtained. The text says that while navigating critically failing checks give a point. The failure condition of the Navigate exploration activity gives 1 on a fail, 2 on a critical fail.

5/5 *****

Further issues.

Hound of Tindalos bite and claw damage are both listed as 2d10. The claws are agile and listed as 2d8 in the regular creature. There is no reason to ever bother biting as listed.

At the start of the scenario it says it may be difficult to recover the PCs if they die. This isnt ever mentioned again. What happens about body recovery? In tier 11-12 this may well be needed with the potential for people to insta die against the librarian.

Encounter B2, the text says at 9-10 you start with 2 weak ropers, the encounter section at the back suggests it is 1 normal roper with weak ropers added at higher CPs.

Sovereign Court 3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus

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I’ve given up on getting any clarifications on these sorts of questions Andrew. GMs are on their own here.

5/5 *****

Talon Stormwarden wrote:
I’ve given up on getting any clarifications on these sorts of questions Andrew. GMs are on their own here.

I know but it might be worth flagging for other people. Its really quite disappointing.

Paizo Employee 4/5 5/55/55/5 *****

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Hi, Ivis here. Let me be clear, I am coming here as an author, and a GM, to share the answers as I run them. Hopefully, this can help with gm consistency.

The.Vortex wrote:

I am currently preparing to run this scenario. The first encounter seems to have two contradictory instructions:

However, their resolve is shaken, and Jamimpi will surrender if reduced to low enough health (see Creatures below). A critical success adds 10 to this HP threshold [...] If any PC critically succeeded on the above Request or Coerce checks while trying to get them to stand down, Jamimpi surrenders when reduced to 20 Hit Points (30 for levels 11–12) [...]. Otherwise Jamimpi fights to the death, believing it is the only way to protect Csilla from herself.

Which one would be the correct one to use? I can't follow both instructions.

My Table Call

If any PC succeeded on the above Request or Coerce checks while trying to get them to stand down, Jamimpi surrenders when reduced to 20 Hit Points, 30 on a critical success (30 & 40 for levels 11–12).

The.Vortex wrote:

Later on, there is another contradiction, though a less severe one:

Quote:
If the group obtains a number of these equal to the number of PCs, they trigger the Gug Guardians encounter [...] This combat is triggered by either accumulating 5 Observance Points, or[...]

My Table Call

A number of these equal to the number of PCs, the Ropers are triggered at double this number.

The.Vortex wrote:

1. On high tier, a crit fail on a certain save will most likely outright kill a character. On Low tier it doesn't do that. Why the difference? High Tier Characters are not better equipped to deal with such an ability in any way.

2. The "Endless" ability was changed from 1 minute to 1 hour in both subtiers. That is a good thing, otherwise the fight might happen multiple times.

My Personal Reason

The highest tier in ANY scenario has more in and out of game resources to handle the aftermath than the lower one. You're also fighting under the LITERAL DARK TAPESTRY - it SHOULD be deadly. However, dealing with it once is all you should be - which is part of the regen ability being extended from a minute to an hour.

My Table Call
I make sure that all players have access to a minimum of 1 Hero Point going into that room, in order to have the best shot at dealing with their dice.

mizinamo wrote:
Also, the scenario has the Vigilant Seal tag, but has no "Faction Notes" which give Reputation with the Vigilant Seal faction under certain circumstances.

My Table Call

This is most likely to call out the choice at the end. I give Rep with the PCs individual factions as stated in text.

andreww wrote:
Hound of Tindalos bite and claw damage are both listed as 2d10. The claws are agile and listed as 2d8 in the regular creature.

My Table Call

I run as the stat block, because otherwise there isn't a reason to utilize the jaws.

andreww wrote:
At the start of the scenario it says it may be difficult to recover the PCs if they die.

My Table Call

Since this is in box text, I treat it as flavor, since there isn't a sidebar or anything that calls it out anywhere else.

andreww wrote:
Encounter B2, the text says at 9-10 you start with 2 weak ropers, the encounter section at the back suggests it is 1 normal roper with weak ropers added at higher CPs.

My Table Call

The balance at the back, since it follows the Game Mastery Guide encounter Balance for a Moderate encounter, which is what it is stated to be.

I hope this helps others with clarity and consistency.

Sovereign Court 3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus

Thanks for your input Ivis!

As for the bonus rep, I think the most telling thing is that there is no bonus rep on the reporting form on the website for this scenario, therefore there is no bonus rep. Reputation is one of the few things tracked on the website, so it is the ultimate arbiter.

On encounter B2, low tier, the appendix indicates a roper and an elite willowisp while the earlier text indicates two weak ropers (ie 2 cr9 vs 1 cr10 + 1 cr7). Both are 80xp and a moderate encounter, so there’s no help there unfortunately. Personally I’d go with the choice with fewer ropers, as they are super annoying to deal with.

Wayfinders 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***** Contributor

Is there any recommended text should the party die and TPK in the librarian encounter (which I think alas may be likely with my potentially no-occultism party that will be attempting this scenario this coming Saturday?)

Hmm

5/5 *****

I ran this last night at low tier, 16CP. Five players, level 12 rogue, level 10 champion, level 9 and 10 sorcerer and level 9 ranger.

The first fight was tough but beatable. The Gugs were unpleasant and the group also triggered the Roper encounter. I assumed all fails gave observation points as per the exploration activity and ignored the reference to crit fails in the text.

The last encounter was brutal. It looked very much like a TPK but the group kept pouring healing into the champion. The big nasty effect is very awful BUT (and this was not done when I played this), it affects all creatures so the first round involved some moving about so he didnt nuke his own allies. One PC did crit fail but another had a scroll of restoration to get him back to doomed 2.

However, worse than this ability was the effect on his claws. Thats about a -4 on all d20 rolls for a minute which is utterly brutal and made the combat take ages. We finished at just over 6 hours.

2/5 ****

andreww wrote:
One PC did crit fail but another had a scroll of restoration to get him back to doomed 2.

Restoration has a casting time of 1 minute. That is next to impossible to achieve during a fight.

5/5 *****

The.Vortex wrote:
andreww wrote:
One PC did crit fail but another had a scroll of restoration to get him back to doomed 2.
Restoration has a casting time of 1 minute. That is next to impossible to achieve during a fight.

So it does, I had never noticed that. It wouldnt have made a difference ultimately.

4/5 5/55/55/5 ****

Am I correct in thinking the Librarian’s ability Swallow Future should affect any guardian creatures added as part of challenge point adjustments?

I don’t see anything that would prevent it.

5/5 *****

GM Bret wrote:

Am I correct in thinking the Librarian’s ability Swallow Future should affect any guardian creatures added as part of challenge point adjustments?

I don’t see anything that would prevent it.

That is how I ran it. When I played it our GM did not.

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