Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So the Pathfinder Society has a lot of leadership NPCs. We have:
* 10 members of the Decemvirate
* 3 Masters (of the Swords, Spells, and Scrolls 'schools')
* Zarta Dralneen (Head archivist)
* The 6 heads of the current factions
That's already twenty right there before we even get to all of the individual Venture Captains that run the various lodges (some of whom, like Ambrus Valsin, pop up constantly) or other recurring NPCs.
When it comes to getting players - new or old - to understand how all of these connect to how the Pathfinder Society organization works, much less to get invested into these characters' possible plotlines, I feel the sheer 'org-chart bloat' at the Society's top works against itself. A player’s ability to care about any specific one of these leading NPCs gets spread too thin for any of their fates to have much of an impact.
In contrast, Starfinder has had ongoing storylines about multiple faction leaders that work in part because the number of faction heads are kept low and focused enough for players to get to see them and their personalities more.
I'm curious what other people think about this. Do you think the Society could use a trimming/consolidation? Or if not, what ways could the large cast of leaders be juggled to have them make an impact?
|
The Decemvirate is a single character, mysterious and untouchable.
Each lodge has a Venture-Captain.
The three Masters are teachers. Don't they serve under the Grand Lodge's Venture-Captain?
The factions are factions and, in my opinion, are far too organized since PFS2 1-01. They should be more like common ideals or motivations causing like-minded Pathfinders to coalesce together from time to time. Some of them might have charismatic leaders or heads but with no organizational authority. But it is what it is, now.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So the Pathfinder Society has a lot of leadership NPCs. We have:
* 10 members of the Decemvirate
* 3 Masters (of the Swords, Spells, and Scrolls 'schools')
* Zarta Dralneen (Head archivist)
* The 6 heads of the current factionsThat's already twenty right there before we even get to all of the individual Venture Captains that run the various lodges (some of whom, like Ambrus Valsin, pop up constantly) or other recurring NPCs.
When it comes to getting players - new or old - to understand how all of these connect to how the Pathfinder Society organization works, much less to get invested into these characters' possible plotlines, I feel the sheer 'org-chart bloat' at the Society's top works against itself. A player’s ability to care about any specific one of these leading NPCs gets spread too thin for any of their fates to have much of an impact.
In contrast, Starfinder has had ongoing storylines about multiple faction leaders that work in part because the number of faction heads are kept low and focused enough for players to get to see them and their personalities more.
I'm curious what other people think about this. Do you think the Society could use a trimming/consolidation? Or if not, what ways could the large cast of leaders be juggled to have them make an impact?
I agree with your subtle and reasonable suggestion to throw all former and current members of the Decemvirate into a wood chipper, they are clearly compromised due to those weird Azlanti artefacts.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think this is mostly a "its season 16 of this particular soap opera" problem. Theres a lot of characters and a lot of dangling plot threads.
Especially since the jump from pfs1 to pfs2 ended up being more Naruto to Naruto Shippuden jump than a Naruto to Boruto or Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z style jump.
And all of that is fine except when you go to draw on history the authors assume people know and they dont and things dont land. You know like the entire Equal Exchanges plotline.
No easy answers here except obviously we need the Aspis to go on a winning streak.
|
Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
|
I don't think the Decemvirate should count as "leadership." Yeah, they're technically leaders, but in practice they rarely show up to hand out missions (excepting one or two scenarios). They're not the focus of the Society (unless there's a specific storyline, such as last year's). Yeah, they're around, but they're not important enough in your day-to-day life to remember. Or rather, you're too unimportant for them to involve themselves with you.
Anyway, point is, the Decemvirate is just a "plug in when needed" device, and that's fine (IMHO). I do agree though that Starfinder has a lot of cool storylines involving the faction heads I wish Pathfinder would incorporate. That could also fix the problem Zoomba mentioned of not being invested. Killing off or removing people seems a bit drastic, as I think they all fulfill an important role in the Society, but I would welcome a reason to care more about them (other than playing "f-, marry, kill" with the school heads) (Kreighton Shaine, Sorrina Westyr, and Marcos Farabellos respectively, by the way)
|
Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
|
As a total aside, we know the identity of several Decemvirate members now, right? Or at least know of their existence, I believe. Am I missing people?
|
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a total aside, we know the identity of several Decemvirate members now, right? Or at least know of their existence, I believe. Am I missing people?
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
My musings on the topic of decemvirate members.
HERE is to my knowledge the full list of known 10 members past and present:
Category 1 - people who died in Eyes of the Ten and may or may not have come back
Odrian of Akiton
Eddington Keel
*Kyalla (we know for sure she retired after these events)
Category 2 -
Members of the 10 who definitely survived Eyes of the 10
Shemis (the titular diviner who is The Eyes of the Ten)
Eliza Petulengro
(Adrils scheme involved killing those 4 plus a 5th he was implied to have already killed or who he believed was killed* to make himself and his confederates have a majoritt vote in the 10 as it was implied The Spider had compromised the ones he didnt kill, which I guess included Vahlo. Its unknown to what extent Vahlo, The Spider and Hestram had their shit together.)
*This was probably Drandle Dreng in hindsight, given the events of Shadows Fall over Absalom and Season 2 of PFS2.
Season 10 -
Vahlo the graveknight who definitely is dead
*Eylisia, a founding member of the 10 who despite still being alive probably did not resume her role as a member but you never know
<insert your favorite pfs1 character who played Passing the Torch>
PFS2 category
Eliza (confirmed now instead of just heavily implied)
Drandle Dreng (though hes confirmed no longer in the picture)
Shrike (who may be Waterfall?)
322
In terms of on screen appearances of members of the 10 under masks we know Eliza was the briefer for All for Immortality, we know Eddington Keel was the briefer for the season 1 pfs1 missions, and we know Dreng and Shrike (who may or may not be waterfall/322).
This means the current make up is FOR SURE:
Shemis
Eliza
322
<insert pfs1 character>
The following are possible but unlikely:
Eddington Keel
Prince Odrian
Eylisia
People have long suspected:
Osprey
Muesello
Both are bare minimum super super trusted by the 10 and are in on the organizations deepest secrets.
So AT MOST we know 9 but 4 are confirmed.
|
Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
|
Also, Osprey always seemed like a close associate, but never really Decemvirate material. Plus, their disappearance after like Season 2 in PFS1 makes things difficult. But it would explain why they knew about Kyalla and Eyes of the Ten.
Thanks for the list, eddv!
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
|
So the Pathfinder Society has a lot of leadership NPCs. We have:
* 10 members of the Decemvirate
* 3 Masters (of the Swords, Spells, and Scrolls 'schools')
* Zarta Dralneen (Head archivist)
* The 6 heads of the current factionsI'm curious what other people think about this. Do you think the Society could use a trimming/consolidation? Or if not, what ways could the large cast of leaders be juggled to have them make an impact?
Let's start with Waterfall. Doesn't HAVE to die, but definitely has no right to be in the society.
Second is Urwall. Every time he shows up everyone rolls their eyes with "Ugh! Not this guy again! Go Away." He doesn't actually contribute anything useful, just annoys people.Distant third: Gorm Greathammer. He's fine, just... doesn't seem as engaged with things as much as the other faction heads. And is doubled up with Zarta. Alternatively: send Zarta on the OTHER path she was offered and make Gorm do more work.
Definitely keep: Eando Kline. I'm super concerned for him because the last 2 seasons have had him butting heads with everyone, and they're setting up a confrontation. Yet he's been RIGHT every time. HE'S the good guy here. Don't do him dirty and turn him into Torch 2.0.
Contributor
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I will defend Urwal with my dying breath, but I may be biased because I wrote a scenario where PCs accompany Urwal on a dreamy journey. Urwal is currently one of the only PF2 Leadership figures with a shred of personality. I like Urwal's stealthiness, astrology talk, and concern for nature.
The main characters with personality from PF1 had all their rough edges rubbed off in PF2. As these were my favorite NPCs from the Society, I am outraged for them.
Zarta Dralneen
What have they done to my favorite former faction leader? I don't mind the writers toning down some of the avert sexuality of the character (but wasn't it nice to have a woman who knew what she wanted and was not ashamed of it?) but why did they have to tone down her wicked humor, spy connections and academic knowledge? Zarta turned away from Cheliax and turned to the Society. Why did we abandon her?
Calisro Benarry
They stole my girl's ship / lodge and gave it to that wimpy half-elf, Eras the Needle, whom no one cares about. Yes, they made her the head of the Horizon Hunters, but once again they took a leader who was strong and opinionated and made her milquetoast. Also, the only nod to her pirate past is her drinking, and there was sooo much more to Calisro then that. She used to be the faction leader who sent you into perilous situations, told you upfront how dangerous they were, and supplied you accordingly. As a result, she became the leader that we trusted most because she at least told you what was going on!
More to come. I still haven't gotten a chance to address Drandle yet...
Venture-Lieutenant, Conventions—PaizoCon
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, it's an international organisation, there's HQ, and then there's regions.
Not only that, but they have their own training facility (The Masters of Spell, Sword and Scroll are basically Deans and Subject Head Teachers of a private university essentially).
I think if anything, a clear organisation chart would be nice, especially when it comes to the regions. It'd be nice to know who's operating where (especially for PF Infinite content makers).
|
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Part of the messiness here is the factions and the schools now occupy the same "space" lorewise.
They were initially semi official groups trying to dominate the society and then became fraternities vying for society resources and now are like...social clubs for agents of similar persuasion?
Its gotten lost in the sauce completely and the idea of the thing here has gotten all muddled and the LO book for PFS is easily the weakest one as a result.
Toss in the 10 and the various semi redundant VOs (why do we have 3 VCs in the same city in Qadira now and why are they operating in Jalmeray?) and yeh its not something most people have a way to connect to now.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Northwestern Indiana
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Part of the messiness here is the factions and the schools now occupy the same "space" lorewise.
They were initially semi official groups trying to dominate the society and then became fraternities vying for society resources and now are like...social clubs for agents of similar persuasion?
Its gotten lost in the sauce completely and the idea of the thing here has gotten all muddled and the LO book for PFS is easily the weakest one as a result.
Toss in the 10 and the various semi redundant VOs (why do we have 3 VCs in the same city in Qadira now and why are they operating in Jalmeray?) and yeh its not something most people have a way to connect to now.
Perhaps there will be a bit of a shakeup in the coming season.
I think that it pays to make many of the major NPCs memorable. This way, players will have their characters forming a stronger connection to the Society and its leaders.
If something major happens to a venture captain, a member of the Decemvirate, or a faction leader, it should be something that the characters care about. (I thought that the last special for First Edition was memorable. The question I find myself asking is if one of the major leaders or figures passed, who would care?)
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The feel of much of the leadership now, I think, has been affected by the removal of much of the dynamic morality that was in pf1s. When everyone is 'good' there is a lot less room to work with. Zarta no longer being morally dark grey is no longer Zarta.
That said, we can't have our cake and eat it too. If we want more dynamic interactions, the society has soul engines (this is a reference). Grandmaster Torch's exist. Colson Maldris, 'nuff said.
There is NPC bloat, but I don't know what the solution is. Just my 2 copper.
|
|
Every time I see the title of this thread, I start to worry for the safety of Alex and the rest of campaign leadership. :/ I also wonder why, specifically, three was chosen as the number to eliminate.
I think when the metaplot focuses on a couple of the leadership NPCs, we tend to become more invested in them (or grow to hate them, which is still investment).
I can agree that a lot of 1E seems to have been forgotten or retconned away, but there have been scenarios that have included references to 1E that people who have only played 2E wouldn’t get, and I really appreciate when an author takes the time to do that.
There are, though, multiple things where as players we spent significant time in 1E to build up, only for them to essentially be reset with 2E. Some of those have subsequently been corrected, others more or less forgotten. There’s enough history for 2E now that it’s less of an issue, but every once in a while something still stings.
Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Central Region
|
I think a good solution could be to increasingly just pretend PFS1 didnt happen to be honest.I honestly thought that was what happened, but then I haven't played many 2E scenarios.
Also, man do I need to catch up if that many have been revealed.
Early in season 1, we were promised that the storylines would be almost completely separate, and that knowing 1E Society lore wouldn't be a requirement to enjoy the new stuff. This continued through season 2, but seasons 3-5 seem to have backpedaled somewhat significantly on this. I don't know if this was always intended or a change in design intent, especially since we changed developers more frequently than the Decemvirate did something shady for a while there.
- Aslynn
- 322
|
Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Every time I see the title of this thread, I start to worry for the safety of Alex and the rest of campaign leadership. :/ I also wonder why, specifically, three was chosen as the number to eliminate.
I assure you I was thinking in-universe only. No Alexs were harmed in the making of this post!
As for why three...
|
Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
I think its come up exactly twice:
Which means you get a bit of that season's plot revealed 2 months before everyone would learn it when it comes up in a later scenario. This is strictly a 'Lore' benefit versus a mechanical' one.
|
|
Every time I see the title of this thread, I start to worry for the safety of Alex and the rest of campaign leadership. :/ I also wonder why, specifically, three was chosen as the number to eliminate.I assure you I was thinking in-universe only. No Alexs were harmed in the making of this post!
As for why three...
Ah, nice. I am a bit embarrassed to have missed that reference.