I've had one session with my thaumaturge and find him very underwhelming so far. I seem to miss all the time, regularly fail lore skills, do paltry damage, take lots of hits, etc. On my own (as an experiment after the session), I also ran the build through several more encounters, levelled him up to 3rd and 5th levels, and found him unable to offer much in combat.
I don't care about being the best - I just want to contribute and not let down my fellow players.
I've watched videos and tried to mimic some good builds and tactics, but it's just not paying off. He feels like a worse ranger.
Can you see if I missed something in the build?
Level 1
Human Charlatan Thaumaturge
HP 17
Str +3
Con +1
Wis +0
Dex +0
Int +1
Cha +4
Chainmail (took heavy armor proficiency) AC 17
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +5
Class DC 16
Longsword +6 to hit, 1d8+3 damage (+2 from exploit personal antithesis)
Esoteric Lore +7
Implement: Mirror (to try to maneuver around battlefield, give myself flanking, etc.)
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Your damage should be 1d8+5 before Exploit due to Implement Empowerment.
So, with Exploit you should be doing around 1d8+7 (11.5) which is very good damage for level 1. As an example, a thief rogue (highest damage rogue) would be at 2d6+4 (11) when sneak attacking at that level.
Apart from that, you're just 1 point behind in accuracy compared to the rest martials, so that shouldn't be gamebreaking at all, especially since as pointed above you are actually ahead in damage.
Your lore is maxed, so for level appropriate challenges, you should win more than you lose, so if you keep failing those, it's either bad luck or not appropriate recall challenges for your level.
The mirror implement requirea a lot of thought and planning, and doesn't really come into its own without a reach weapon and fighter dedication to grab reactive strike.
Also, what was your level 1 feat (or feats, given you're playing a human)?
Squark wrote: The mirror implement requirea a lot of thought and planning, and doesn't really come into its own without a reach weapon and fighter dedication to grab reactive strike.
Also, what was your level 1 feat (or feats, given you're playing a human)?
Diverse lore, armor proficiency (heavy), cooperative nature.
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Aside from the usual suspects, bad rolls and lack of experience with the character, low level Pathfinder is a bit more unforgiving than mid to high levels. Early on, bad luck is made worse because this means you will be getting knocked out of most fights or feel like you're doing nothing because options are limited if you don't plan your character with "third actions" from the get go (more than one).
Combats being unfavorable to your playstyle will also give a bad impression, but since you tried your character at multiple levels, you probably had a chance to experience more of the class than normal players.
Right now, my suggestion would be leaving Mirror as a later Implement and picking up the weapon or the Amulet. Those two are great and reliable options.
So there a few things to consider in building a thaumaturge:
- The thaumaturge is a action heavy class.
- The thaumaturge has a weak reflex save.
- The thaumaturge is only a D8 HP class (not super tanky)
- The thaumaturge KAS is not its attack stat.
- The thaumaturge does not need high CHA (despite it being the KAS).
- Due to large static damage buffs from implement empowerment and personal antithesis its most important to 'hit' (i.e., boost accuracy) than boost damage.
I find that to resolve this I trend towards certain things:
- +1 to hit or agile are amazing for your DPR (e.g., Marshal inspiring stance, bless spell, bard inspiration, etc.). For your build that means getting flatfooted via the mirror implement is very important.
- I prefer ranged strikes/dex attacks. That helps patch your reflex save, saves you actions by avoiding move actions, and keeps you out of the front line to save your limited HP.
- I usually start with 14 or 16 CHA and use a -2 INT ancestry and redistribute those stat boosts to STR/DEX/CON. All you have to do is avoid crit fails on exploit vulnerability and basically you can only crit fail on a 1 (which is true regardless of whether you use a 14, 16, or 18 CHA).
- The best ranged damaging weapons are thrown weapons since they add full STR to damage. A returning rune until L8 (then you're losing DPR from the lack of a damage rune) will ensure you don't drop DPR. But you can invest in the champion archetype (also gives a non-scaling heavy armour proficiency for L1-L12) for blade ally for a free returning rune or the rogue/ranger/gunslinger archetypes for quick draw (rogue is better for many reasons). Rogue can add damage (sneak attacker, dread striker, etc.). But Champion can add lay on hands, champion reaction, etc.
- Unless I need something else, toughness as a L1 or L3 general feat is often a good pick to improve survivability.
As for diverse lore. Remember you only take -2 on the expanded use cases. Much of the community assumes that using lore should be vs. an easy DC for that level check DC, so it may also be worth chatting with your GM to see how they are setting DCs for the ability.
Otherwise, perhaps your GM is not building encounters or setting DCs appropriately.
Overall though, you had 1 session and then maybe did some white room analysis for L3/L5?. I don't think you should judge any class on one session. Give it 3-4 more real sessions.
Red Griffyn wrote: So there a few things to consider in building a thaumaturge:
- The thaumaturge is a action heavy class.
- The thaumaturge has a weak reflex save.
- The thaumaturge is only a D8 HP class (not super tanky)
- The thaumaturge KAS is not its attack stat.
- The thaumaturge does not need high CHA (despite it being the KAS).
- Due to large static damage buffs from implement empowerment and personal antithesis its most important to 'hit' (i.e., boost accuracy) than boost damage.
I find that to resolve this I trend towards certain things:
- +1 to hit or agile are amazing for your DPR (e.g., Marshal inspiring stance, bless spell, bard inspiration, etc.). For your build that means getting flatfooted via the mirror implement is very important.
- I prefer ranged strikes/dex attacks. That helps patch your reflex save, saves you actions by avoiding move actions, and keeps you out of the front line to save your limited HP.
- I usually start with 14 or 16 CHA and use a -2 INT ancestry and redistribute those stat boosts to STR/DEX/CON. All you have to do is avoid crit fails on exploit vulnerability and basically you can only crit fail on a 1 (which is true regardless of whether you use a 14, 16, or 18 CHA).
- The best ranged damaging weapons are thrown weapons since they add full STR to damage. A returning rune until L8 (then you're losing DPR from the lack of a damage rune) will ensure you don't drop DPR. But you can invest in the champion archetype (also gives a non-scaling heavy armour proficiency for L1-L12) for blade ally for a free returning rune or the rogue/ranger/gunslinger archetypes for quick draw (rogue is better for many reasons). Rogue can add damage (sneak attacker, dread striker, etc.). But Champion can add lay on hands, champion reaction, etc.
- Unless I need something else, toughness as a L1 or L3 general feat is often a good pick to improve survivability.
As for diverse lore. Remember you only take -2 on the expanded use cases. Much of the community assumes that using...
He's already a heavy armor user, so he can get a full plate to get Bulwark, that will help with the reflex saves and it's perfectly fine to go full Str zero dex in that case.
Thrown/Ranged is just one of the ways to go, but that doesn't make str/melee weaker by any means, if anything, melee is quite stronger in the early levels that the OP is currently at.
I like starting with 18 Cha. Esoteric lore is your bread and butter. So getting reliable success rolls on that check is vital. Especially since with Diverse lore you use that result as a result for generic Recall vs that creature as well. Especially helpful to go as high as possible to counteract the -2 on the non-creature stuff with Diverse. Most GMs that I've played with just use the normal DC for ultra-wide lores like bardic, esoteric, or loremaster lores.
I do agree that thaumaturge is action hungry, so action compression archetypes are quite strong. Stuff like getting a mount as an example either via cavalier or beastmaster are a good way to get a free stride every turn, monks for flurry if you plan to go that long (level 10) and etc.
Due to the action intensity of Thaumaturge I do agree that Mirror is not optimal as a "starting" implement, none of the Action Implements are, those are better reserved for when you already have picked a few action compression feats or casters can more reliably Haste you and etc. Instead, going for a passive or a reaction Implement as a starting point will be easier to manage.
Harles wrote: I've had one session with my thaumaturge and find him very underwhelming so far. I seem to miss all the time, regularly fail lore skills, do paltry damage, take lots of hits, etc. On my own (as an experiment after the session), I also ran the build through several more encounters, levelled him up to 3rd and 5th levels, and found him unable to offer much in combat.
I don't care about being the best - I just want to contribute and not let down my fellow players.
I've watched videos and tried to mimic some good builds and tactics, but it's just not paying off. He feels like a worse ranger.
Can you see if I missed something in the build?
Level 1
Human Charlatan Thaumaturge
HP 17
Str +3
Con +1
Wis +0
Dex +0
Int +1
Cha +4
Chainmail (took heavy armor proficiency) AC 17
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +5
Class DC 16
Longsword +6 to hit, 1d8+3 damage (+2 from exploit personal antithesis)
Esoteric Lore +7
Implement: Mirror (to try to maneuver around battlefield, give myself flanking, etc.)
The big thing, as mentioned, is that you're missing +2 damage that doesn't require an action. That's why your damage feels paltry! Thaumaturge is a class that hits for very reliable damage with a high floor, but missing out on Implement Empowerment takes that away.
But, some other thoughts:
- Dubious Knowledge means that failing a recall knowledge check isn't a waste of time. (But yes, getting a failure on the Exploit Vulnerability roll means Diverse Lore doesn't give you any information.)
- Critically failing those knowledge checks only lasts until 4th level. You can take Unmistakable Lore to turn crit fails into regular failures, meaning you always know something as long as the GM lets you roll.
- Consider when action costs are actually worth it. Your implement works fine without an exploited weakness, and two damage is so-so. Giving yourself a round of flanking is only your best move occasionally. Second strikes, intimidating, moving into flanking with an ally, etc., are also important to consider.
- Mirror implement is excellent for a variety of uses even out of combat. I've used it to get through spaces too narrow to squeeze through, to cross a rickety bridge more reliably, to move more quietly, to get an unfair advantage in a solo duel, to check around corners, and to move faster on difficult terrain.
- Thaumaturge feels better as you get a bit further in. Right now, a Wizard's untrained lores are rolling with almost the same modifier as your Diverse Lore, but getting a couple levels will pad that out. Getting a little more damage on personal vulnerability will make the action cost feel better. A second implement helps round things out, and being able to bump your strength up means no longer swinging one behind some of the other martials.
Something easily missed - at least by me AND my DM, is that the exploit vulnerability DC is determined by the creatures level and is not the same as the recall knowledge DC. Which can be really important when fighting unique enemies.
You probably have to wait a bit until you fight enemies with bigger vulnerabilities. Personal antithesis brings you on par with other martials, but if you can use exploit vulnerability you will shine.
Don't sit on your charisma, use intimidation. Sure, when enemies croak after a second hit it is probably a waste, but debuffing a strong enemy helps your whole group. Pathfinder2e is a game where teamwork is king.
Out of combat i love to know about everything. Building lore? Dwarven lore? Undead lore? You can roll on it. Think about something that gives you all this insight, like a famous adventurer relative that told you stories or your aunts book. Being a smartass can be great fun.
Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote: Don't sit on your charisma, use intimidation. Sure, when enemies croak after a second hit it is probably a waste, but debuffing a strong enemy helps your whole group. Pathfinder2e is a game where teamwork is king. This...plus, skills? Athletics, Intimidation, Diplomacy...and??? That's a pretty good set.
OP, all in all I don't see much wrong with your starting character. It may just be, as LR says, just 1st level and bad luck blues.
For more early level "first line melee" toughness, consider:
+1 Dex instead of +1 Int to increase your AC (eventually, you don't need +1 Dex. So if you're happy building toward some mid level optimal don't do this. But if you're the sort of player who values better along the way even if it doesn't lead to final optimal, consider it).
Orc/Hold-scarred instead of human for +4 HP and the diehard feat. Going orc means you have to put off Armor Proficiency until at least L3, but you probably don't need it before then anyway.
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