Detonate, syringe spear, quick draw, two weapon fighting and you

[Zehnpai]

So here's an interesting interaction of rules that I'd like help sorting out.

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Question 1: Would multiple sources of detonate stack? The spell duration is 1 round, but the damage is instantaneous when it goes off. My reading is instantaneous damage always stacks.

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Question 2: Syringe spear is a thrown weapon. As a baseline it's a two handed weapon, but from what I'm reading throwing a thrown weapon is typically considered, baseline, to be a one handed affair. With quick draw you're allowed to make full iterative attacks.

So if say you have a 2 regular attacks from bab, haste and TWF you'd be able to throw 4 of these things in a single full round attack, correct? Or can you not TWF a thrown weapon that's 2 handed when used in melee?

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Extra credit question 3: From what I understand when infusions are used and how weirdly they interact with personal range spells, generally we change the word 'you' in personal spells to 'the target' as you would for a touch range spell.

Because of how detonate works and is worded, this means that the target would be able to decide, when it explodes, what type of damage it does since that is determined not when the spell is made but when it detonates. But if you have no idea what you were just hit with...how would you know what element to explode with?

I'm thinking allow a knowledge:arcana and if they succeed they can pick, but if they fail just randomize?

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Situation:

Party has someone who is built for throwing weapons. Alchemist has more spell slots than he knows what to do with. They plan on buying a handful of syringe spears and filling them with infusions of detonate.

I immediately said no to Skinsend. No save CC would make balancing encounters a nightmare. However, Detonate I see no problem with in limited fashion provided it doesn't break any rules.

Thanks in advance!

[Azothath]

IF you're the GM players need to ask questions vs a skill DC you set. Only answer DC 10 stuff automatically otherwise they need a skill check.

1) Detonate:K4 spell. I assume they are using Brew Potion to put it in A vial and then syringe spear. The Brew Potion RAW has your answer doesn't work due to delay and std action to dismiss. While technical I can't see a GM not allowing it as it is a potion/infusion otherwise consider they choose a non-valid parameter (like "fluffy energy damage") and the spell fails. Similar problem with Poisoner's Gloves and Gaseous Form but that debuffs them until they dismiss it.

2) two handed is two handed weapon. Quick Draw ... A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow). Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat. The last condition will affect potions and infusions in the spear.

3) personal remain personal, can't be used in Brew Potion. An infusion can be drank by a non-alchemist but remains a personal spell.

4) situation, see 1st comment. Trial and Error is a valid way to test things out in your Home Game before you do it in combat.

Each casting of a spell is independent act and doesn't stack automatically (the term has a technical meaning in the game) you have to check the spell description and bonus/condition type. Damage accrues. IF the target had Energy Resistance or Protection, each instance applies against the magical defense.

[Zehnpai]

I don't believe brew potion enters into this at all. They're using alchemical infusions which work in a syringe spear since it's basically just a ranged non-touch version of poisoners gloves.

For stacking:

From what I understand sources of damage can always work. The only exception to this is bleed damage which is explicitly called out and the explicit 'on fire' condition.

For quick draw:

Quick draw just allows you to draw a weapon as a free action instead of a move action. If he has 6 spears in his efficient quiver and each is preloaded with detonate, he should be able to draw and throw them. My question is has anyone ever solved the "In Pathfinder, does a spear take two hands to throw?" question.

I ~believe~ throwing weapons are always considered one handed with the sole exception of chucking a two handed weapon that isn't a throwing weapon (IE: throwing a great sword).

[Java Man]

I am not convinced that infusions do anything when injected rather than imbibed. Although I acknowledge no one else seems to share my doubt.

[Azothath]

Zehnpai wrote:

... which work....

To be clear how I view this conversation is how they work is your assumption which (as I pointed out) is not RAW. It's okay if you want to do that in your Home Game but there will be consequences. Those Home Game consequences are what you are posting about. See last paragraph for my advice.

Personally I think the thrust of RAW is against what you are doing as it tries to prevent (for Game Fairness) what you are doing.
I do think Alchemist class description has problems and they get thunked unnecessarily.

Java Man wrote:

I am not convinced that infusions do anything when injected rather than imbibed....

I think that interpretation is being too pedantic and tries to circumvent other rules/items as a restriction (I'd be happier if they said "an ingested infusion" using language from poison/afflictions). Once the mixture has the alchemist's 'magic' and takes up a spell slot, it's basically an independent 'uber' potion as it's better than what the Brew Potion feat can produce. I think it is also akin to sharing a spell via an object. Alchemist's already experience a lot of restrictions, I don't know why you'd want to enforce a pedantic implied one especially when it is the class doing their thematic thing. Again, it's fine in your Home Game as it is not a big impact but just be clear and upfront about it so your players know before they choose the class.

The second issue is can you make a personal spell a touch spell. I think that takes a feat or (more powerful) class ability as personal spells are typically over-powered. My Advice is to increase the spell level by 1 to represent that change (as a metamagic feat) and resolve your implementation issues.

[Azothath]

throwing a great sword means it is using the weapon inappropriately and it becomes an improvised thrown weapon. That's different than throwing a thrown weapon which is a subset of melee weapons and one ammunition.
IMO the technical term is "use case" where objects/weapons fall into different classes or types based on how they are used.
Use object as improvised weapon.
 Use object-weapon as weapon.
Use object as improvised thrown (ranged) weapon.
 Use object-weapon as improvised thrown (ranged) weapon.
 Use object-thrown-weapon as thrown (ranged) weapon.

[Zehnpai]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's pretty obvious syringe spear and infusions working is RAW. You can pour any liquid into the spear. Infusions are a liquid. And we know from poisoners gloves that infusions work when injected as an attack.

My questions were regards to damage spell interaction, throwing weapons and flavor text.

[Diego Rossi]

Poisoner's gloves wrote:

In the case of a personal infused extract, the opponent receives both a Fortitude save and spell resistance.

If we base how the syringe spear works on the Poisoner's Gloves, the target should receive both a Fortitude save and a Spell Resistance check.

The description was errated in the second printing of ultimate equipment.

Even more fun (i.e. headaches for the GM):

Detonate wrote:

Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes

The spell has a Reflex save. It is clearly meant to apply to the energy explosion, but RAW it applies to the spell as you are applying it to another person.

So RAW the target gets a Reflex save to halve the effect of the spell when it is injected, and then it halves it again when it Detonates.
Certainly not RAI, but it is the problem of using Personal effects on other people. Non-RAI effects.

APG wrote:

b Infusion: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.

inject=/=imbibe

The Poisoner's Gloves explicitly says that they deliver an infusion, the syringe spear doesn't say that.

So the GM should decide if being injected is a valid way to imbibe an
infusion.

- * -

Throwing a syringe spear.

The syringe spear can be thrown and it is a two-handed weapon. No rule says that it can be thrown one-handed.

A shortspear can be thrown and is a one-handed weapon.
A longspear can't be thrown and is a two-handed weapon.

Considering the above, I would rule that you can't use two-weapon combat when throwing syringe spears. The syringe spear stay a two-handed weapon even when thrown.

[Java Man]

A generic spear is a two handed melee weapon that can be thrown, how many hands does that take? And what if it is too do you add+1 1/2 times str bonus?

[Azothath]

I've tried but 3 posts are more than enough

[I grok do u]

2) As for throwing, you want to look at two-handed thrower. It explains that, normally, throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action that adds STR mod to damage. The feat allows use of the quick draw feat and gain 1.5 Str mod to damage.

RAW, syringe spear is a bit difficult on what can work with it. Poisons are mentioned, but not what type; injury (like any other piercing or slashing weapon) and/or ingested? Inhaled? Definitely a GM call.

Injection spear (exotic) at least lets you put up to 5 doses of mystery liquid in it. :)

I may allow infusion of detonate, but the stabbed victim (as the "imbiber") gets to determine the energy type, which then goes off 1 round later. I would also note the blast goes out 30 ft, and the range increment is 20 ft. Let the no-save attack be something that can literally backfire and blow up in the alchemist's face.

[Zehnpai]

Thanks again my friends for helping me think this one out.

Diego Rossi wrote:

inject=/=imbibe

The Poisoner's Gloves explicitly says that they deliver an infusion, the syringe spear doesn't say that.

I try not to get pedantic like that. Otherwise the syringe spear does nothing since it says it injects the poison and no poison is type:inject. It's all inhaled, contact, ingested or injury. Strictly RAW it wouldn't work since even contact/injury requires that the weapon be coated.

Syringe spear also came out before Alchemist was a thing. The next closest thing are touch injection and poisoners gloves. If we ever get a reprint of adventurer's armory I'm sure they'll clarify. Annnny day now.