| eboats |
Flexibile Spellcaster
Halycon Speaker
Cascade Bearer's Spellcasting
I am asking for RAW interpretations only.
I will use a Wizard for this example, although this doesn't specifically apply only to Wizard.
So RAW it is possible with these 3 selections to have access to cast every spell in the game from your Wizard slots. Cascade Bearer lets you add any spell to your Hspell list/spell book.
Halycon lets you cast Haylcon spells from your Wizard slots.
Flexible Spellcaster lets you pick any spells from your spellbook to add to your collection.
Now just for fun we use Spell Blending as a specialist on this Wizard. We also consider a FA build. This Wizard take a casting archetype(lets say Witch). We blend the Curriculum Spell and one of the Archetype spells for our blends to create Wizard slots which by RAW is legal.
So what we end up with is essentially a Wizard with a collection of 25 spells that can come from any tradition, that are all able to be upcast or down cast like a signature spell would(while not being a signature spells) that cast from Wizard slots. (Limit on non arcane spells picked is only 3 can be picked from each of the levels 1-6 slots, and only 2 from the level 7 slot)
| Errenor |
So what we end up with is essentially a Wizard with a collection of 25 spells that can come from any tradition, that are all able to be upcast or down cast like a signature spell would(while not being a signature spells) that cast from Wizard slots. (Limit on non arcane spells picked is only 3 can be picked from each of the levels 1-6 slots, and only 2 from the level 7 slot)
I count 18 spells max for a flexible wizard. Those allow you to up/downcast freely. Except if spells in this collection are halcyon, you can never upcast them higher than 7th rank (max halcyon spells rank I see).
Then halcyon spells themselves: I count max 20 (2*7+6) of them, they can't be up/downcast at all, pure spontaneous casting only from halcyon slots.Otherwise seems legit.
Maybe I missed some feats though.
| shroudb |
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Halycon Speaker
Cascade Bearer's SpellcastingI am asking for RAW interpretations only.
I will use a Wizard for this example, although this doesn't specifically apply only to Wizard.
So RAW it is possible with these 3 selections to have access to cast every spell in the game from your Wizard slots. Cascade Bearer lets you add any spell to your Hspell list/spell book.
Halycon lets you cast Haylcon spells from your Wizard slots.
Flexible Spellcaster lets you pick any spells from your spellbook to add to your collection.
Now just for fun we use Spell Blending as a specialist on this Wizard. We also consider a FA build. This Wizard take a casting archetype(lets say Witch). We blend the Curriculum Spell and one of the Archetype spells for our blends to create Wizard slots which by RAW is legal.
So what we end up with is essentially a Wizard with a collection of 25 spells that can come from any tradition, that are all able to be upcast or down cast like a signature spell would(while not being a signature spells) that cast from Wizard slots. (Limit on non arcane spells picked is only 3 can be picked from each of the levels 1-6 slots, and only 2 from the level 7 slot)
Not exactly, you are still beholden to this:
You can’t heighten a halcyon spell beyond your maximum spell level of halcyon spell, even if you have higher-level spell slots, and you can’t select a halcyon spell as a signature spell.
So regardless if you can prepare them in your wizard slots, you still can't prepare them at a higher level than what's allowed by your Halcyon slots, which would be 7th rank spell at level 18 character.
Basically, your Halcyon spells will always be 2-3 ranks below your maximum spell rank as a wizard.
Concerning Flexible Spellcaster:
That's a Class archetype, so it only applies on your Wizard slots and nothing else.
Also:
Extra spell slots you gain that have additional restrictions, like the wizard's specialist school spells or the cleric's divine font spells, don't change due to this archetype, nor do such spells count toward the number of spells you place in your spell collection. See the Restricted Spell Slots sidebar.
So you never create "flexible slots" regardless if you try to do so by spell blending. If you use Spell Blending, on a Flexible spellcaster, you need to prepare a specific spell on that slot as normal for a Wizard instead of having a Flexible slot.
| Errenor |
Concerning Flexible Spellcaster:
That's a Class archetype, so it only applies on your Wizard slots and nothing else.
Yes, sure. But your halcyon spells also go into your spellbook. So they must be able to be selected for your spell collection. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast them as wizard at all, which is absurd and not what halcyon wizard spells mean. And if halcyon spells are in your collection, you can up/downcast them as you like. That's how spell collection work. But then there's a rank restriction for halcyon spells.
Extra spell slots you gain that have additional restrictions, like the wizard's specialist school spells or the cleric's divine font spells, don't change due to this archetype, nor do such spells count toward the number of spells you place in your spell collection. See the Restricted Spell Slots sidebar.So you never create "flexible slots" regardless if you try to do so by spell blending. If you use Spell Blending, on a Flexible spellcaster, you need to prepare a specific spell on that slot as normal for a Wizard instead of having a Flexible slot.
That's not what 'extra spell slots' mean at all. Spell blending creates perfectly normal common slots, not 'extra'. So these work with flexible spellcasting normally.
'Extra' are school slots and cleric font slots, as in the example.| shroudb |
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shroudb wrote:Yes, sure. But your halcyon spells also go into your spellbook. So they must be able to be selected for your spell collection. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast them as wizard at all, which is absurd and not what halcyon wizard spells mean. And if halcyon spells are in your collection, you can up/downcast them as you like. That's how spell collection work. But then there's a rank restriction for halcyon spells.Concerning Flexible Spellcaster:
That's a Class archetype, so it only applies on your Wizard slots and nothing else.
Yes, I said that. The note was because he's planning on caster archetypes, that the Flexible spellcaster won't work on these.
shroudb wrote:
Extra spell slots you gain that have additional restrictions, like the wizard's specialist school spells or the cleric's divine font spells, don't change due to this archetype, nor do such spells count toward the number of spells you place in your spell collection. See the Restricted Spell Slots sidebar.So you never create "flexible slots" regardless if you try to do so by spell blending. If you use Spell Blending, on a Flexible spellcaster, you need to prepare a specific spell on that slot as normal for a Wizard instead of having a Flexible slot.
That's not what 'extra spell slots' mean at all. Spell blending creates perfectly normal common slots, not 'extra'. So these work with flexible spellcasting normally.
'Extra' are school slots and cleric font slots, as in the example.
I completely disagree. Font and school are examples given, yes, but the general rule of Flexible spellcaster is that extra spellslots adhere to the normal restrictions of said extra slots, which for the normal wizard is "prepare a spell in that slot".
| Errenor |
I completely disagree. Font and school are examples given, yes, but the general rule of Flexible spellcaster is that extra spellslots adhere to the normal restrictions of said extra slots, which for the normal wizard is "prepare a spell in that slot".
I'm saying that spell blending slots are NOT 'extra spellslots'. You convert normal (and sometimes extra) slots to normal common slots. They are NOT a thing in 'a class that grants additional spell slots with restrictions'. This doesn't even change the number of spells in the collection because it's 'the total number of spell slots you get each day from your class spells' (here without 'extra', so school spells/slots). Spell blending comes after you get this number of spells.
Blended slots don't have any restrictions for a base wizard and that must be the same for a flexible.| shroudb |
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shroudb wrote:I completely disagree. Font and school are examples given, yes, but the general rule of Flexible spellcaster is that extra spellslots adhere to the normal restrictions of said extra slots, which for the normal wizard is "prepare a spell in that slot".I'm saying that spell blending slots are NOT 'extra spellslots'. You convert normal (and sometimes extra) slots to normal common slots. They are NOT a thing in 'a class that grants additional spell slots with restrictions'. This doesn't even change the number of spells in the collection because it's 'the total number of spell slots you get each day from your class spells' (here without 'extra', so school spells/slots). Spell blending comes after you get this number of spells.
Blended slots don't have any restrictions for a base wizard and that must be the same for a flexible.
They are called out as Bonus slots and have restrictions. So I don't see why they wouldn't adhere to the normal restrictions of Flexible spellcaster.
| Errenor |
Errenor wrote:They are called out as Bonus slots and have restrictions. So I don't see why they wouldn't adhere to the normal restrictions of Flexible spellcaster.shroudb wrote:I completely disagree. Font and school are examples given, yes, but the general rule of Flexible spellcaster is that extra spellslots adhere to the normal restrictions of said extra slots, which for the normal wizard is "prepare a spell in that slot".I'm saying that spell blending slots are NOT 'extra spellslots'. You convert normal (and sometimes extra) slots to normal common slots. They are NOT a thing in 'a class that grants additional spell slots with restrictions'. This doesn't even change the number of spells in the collection because it's 'the total number of spell slots you get each day from your class spells' (here without 'extra', so school spells/slots). Spell blending comes after you get this number of spells.
Blended slots don't have any restrictions for a base wizard and that must be the same for a flexible.
'Bonus', not 'extra'.
Which restrictions exactly? (And don't tell me that 'one per rank' is one. It's not what 'restriction' means in this context)And I did say why they shouldn't. In the last sentence.
It really starting to look like you are trying to find reasons to nerf this for some reason.
| shroudb |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
shroudb wrote:Errenor wrote:They are called out as Bonus slots and have restrictions. So I don't see why they wouldn't adhere to the normal restrictions of Flexible spellcaster.shroudb wrote:I completely disagree. Font and school are examples given, yes, but the general rule of Flexible spellcaster is that extra spellslots adhere to the normal restrictions of said extra slots, which for the normal wizard is "prepare a spell in that slot".I'm saying that spell blending slots are NOT 'extra spellslots'. You convert normal (and sometimes extra) slots to normal common slots. They are NOT a thing in 'a class that grants additional spell slots with restrictions'. This doesn't even change the number of spells in the collection because it's 'the total number of spell slots you get each day from your class spells' (here without 'extra', so school spells/slots). Spell blending comes after you get this number of spells.
Blended slots don't have any restrictions for a base wizard and that must be the same for a flexible.'Bonus', not 'extra'.
Which restrictions exactly? (And don't tell me that 'one per rank' is one. It's not what 'restriction' means in this context)
And I did say why they shouldn't. In the last sentence.
It really starting to look like you are trying to find reasons to nerf this for some reason.
Bonus is definitely NOT "normal" as you claim. In fact bonus and extra are synonyms while bonus is the opposite of normal.
Getting extra slots, or bonus slots, comes with the normal restrictions of said slots, they aren't Flexible.
To me what it looks like is that you are trying to find loopholes to permit something that had explicit language to stop from happening: giving more Flexible slots than what the archetype allows.
| shroudb |
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shroudb wrote:the normal restrictions of said slotsBlended slots DON'T have any. Literally don't. They don't have anything to do with 'Restricted Spell Slots' inset. Because they aren't, well, restricted.
And I don't even like spell blending...
Having to prepare a specific spell instead of being Flexible is the restriction.
They are bonus slots, and thus, not Flexible.
At least that's my reading of the archetype. They went out of their way to restrict those slots.
It has nothing (from my part) to do with "power level" (I personally find it fine) but everything to do with what I believe were the intentions behind those restrictions.
So, as far as this being a debatable ruling, I'll stick with my interpretation rather than yours.
---
This is in the end almost irrelevant for the OP, who's main issue with his concept is that his Halcyon spells are restricted to always be 2-3 ranks lower than his max rank spells, and top out at 7th.
So, he doesn't have access to every spell in every list, as he wanted.
| eboats |
Flexible Spellcaster:
During your daily preparations, you prepare a spell collection rather than preparing spells into each spell slot individually. The number of spells in your spell collection each day equals the total number of spell slots you get each day from your class spells. Select these spells from the same source as normal, such as from a spellbook for a wizard.
You can cast any of the spells in your collection by using a spell slot of an appropriate level.
Halycon Spells:
Each time you cast a halcyon spell, decide whether it is an arcane or primal spell. You can’t heighten a halcyon spell beyond your maximum spell level of halcyon spell, even if you have higher-level spell slots, and you can’t select a halcyon spell as a signature spell.
I am still not clear if I add Heal to my spell list and book if the specific language from Flexible Spellcaster enables that Heal to be cast at 9th level if it is out of a collection. It feels like we have 2 specific rulings here, and when I look up the rules on spell lists, spell books, spells, and every rule I can find it appears this is just GM discretion on which specific should take priority. Since I always rule in favor of what is stronger for the players I am inclined to allow the selection of 7th level and lower spells from non Arcane lists, but allow the casting of them at any level based on the bolded part in Flexible Spellcaster.
| shroudb |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flexible Spellcaster:
During your daily preparations, you prepare a spell collection rather than preparing spells into each spell slot individually. The number of spells in your spell collection each day equals the total number of spell slots you get each day from your class spells. Select these spells from the same source as normal, such as from a spellbook for a wizard.
You can cast any of the spells in your collection by using a spell slot of an appropriate level.
Halycon Spells:
Each time you cast a halcyon spell, decide whether it is an arcane or primal spell. You can’t heighten a halcyon spell beyond your maximum spell level of halcyon spell, even if you have higher-level spell slots, and you can’t select a halcyon spell as a signature spell.
I am still not clear if I add Heal to my spell list and book if the specific language from Flexible Spellcaster enables that Heal to be cast at 9th level if it is out of a collection. It feels like we have 2 specific rulings here, and when I look up the rules on spell lists, spell books, spells, and every rule I can find it appears this is just GM discretion on which specific should take priority. Since I always rule in favor of what is stronger for the players I am inclined to allow the selection of 7th level and lower spells from non Arcane lists, but allow the casting of them at any level based on the bolded part in Flexible Spellcaster.
Flexible spellcaster is the general rule for flexible spellcasters.
The specific language of Halcyon makes the maximum level you can Heighten them equal to your Highest Halcyon slot.Which will always be 2-3 ranks below your actual highest wizard slot.
The general rule is the Flexible spellcaster: This IS your general spellcasting.
Halcyon spells is the specific rule here limiting what level you can cast those specific spells.
| Errenor |
Errenor wrote:Having to prepare a specific spell instead of being Flexible is the restriction.shroudb wrote:the normal restrictions of said slotsBlended slots DON'T have any. Literally don't. They don't have anything to do with 'Restricted Spell Slots' inset. Because they aren't, well, restricted.
And I don't even like spell blending...
Which you've invented just now. Ma-a-a-an. You can't do that. "Is there a restriction for a slot to become flexible? Yeah, I say: it can't be flexible. There! Now it's restricted and can't be flexible!" It's pure madness.
They are bonus slots, and thus, not Flexible.
They aren't really 'bonus' (even if called that, you've paid for them), they are normal slots without any restrictions from core wizard's mechanics, you can prepare anything into them! It's from sub-class, it's not even a feat.
This is in the end almost irrelevant for the OP, who's main issue with his concept is that his Halcyon spells are restricted to always be 2-3 ranks lower than his max rank spells, and top out at 7th.
On which we completely agree btw.
Cordell Kintner
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Using Spell Blending would work with Flexible Casting, but it also reduces your daily spell collection.
So if you want to give up your two 5th rank slots for a 7th rank slot, sure, go ahead. That just means you can't prep any of your known 5th rank Halcyon spells that day, and since you only know two 7th rank Halcyon spells, you have to fill that third slot with a normal spell.
| Errenor |
Using Spell Blending would work with Flexible Casting, but it also reduces your daily spell collection.
So if you want to give up your two 5th rank slots for a 7th rank slot, sure, go ahead. That just means you can't prep any of your known 5th rank Halcyon spells that day, and since you only know two 7th rank Halcyon spells, you have to fill that third slot with a normal spell.
Sorry, but that's not how Flexible Casting spell collection works. It doesn't look at spells' ranks at all. And halcyon spells simply go into a spellbook, they aren't any different in this case (but they are for halcyon slots, yes).
Flexible only looks at number of spells:"During your daily preparations, you prepare a spell collection rather than preparing spells into each spell slot individually. The number of spells in your spell collection each day equals the total number of spell slots you get each day from your class spells. Select these spells from the same source as normal, such as from a spellbook for a wizard." Well, you also must select at least 1 1st rank spell, but that's all.Also, no, I don't agree that spell blending even changes number of spells in a collection: "total number of [unrestricted] spell slots you get each day from [for?] your class spells" is the same 2 slots per rank irrespective of whether you use Blending, and how much.
| ikarinokami |
Halycon Speaker
Cascade Bearer's SpellcastingI am asking for RAW interpretations only.
I will use a Wizard for this example, although this doesn't specifically apply only to Wizard.
So RAW it is possible with these 3 selections to have access to cast every spell in the game from your Wizard slots. Cascade Bearer lets you add any spell to your Hspell list/spell book.
Halycon lets you cast Haylcon spells from your Wizard slots.
Flexible Spellcaster lets you pick any spells from your spellbook to add to your collection.
Now just for fun we use Spell Blending as a specialist on this Wizard. We also consider a FA build. This Wizard take a casting archetype(lets say Witch). We blend the Curriculum Spell and one of the Archetype spells for our blends to create Wizard slots which by RAW is legal.
So what we end up with is essentially a Wizard with a collection of 25 spells that can come from any tradition, that are all able to be upcast or down cast like a signature spell would(while not being a signature spells) that cast from Wizard slots. (Limit on non arcane spells picked is only 3 can be picked from each of the levels 1-6 slots, and only 2 from the level 7 slot)
I don't think there is a RAW ruling. Because the text supports either ruling. Your GM would just have to pick which rule should prevail. I personally would rule that halcyon spells in the collection of a flexible caster get heightened because allowing otherwise cripples the entire point of flexible spell spellcasting and that flexible spell casting came after halcyon spell casting.