| Travis James Hall |
Hi all. Experienced roleplayer, relatively new to Pathfinder.
I’ve been playing in a D&D 5E campaign for a while now, and the DM is considering converting the game to Pathfinder 2E. Frankly, I’m not a fan of the idea - Pathfinder is the better system, but converting mid-game is going to be a big hassle. But it may well happen anyway.
One problem is, I’ve made a Firbolg character, and attempted to lean in to the cultural aspect of them. Firbolg just don’t exist for Pathfinder - well, not something closely resembling the current D&D Firbolg. There’s a PF1 monster (which honestly doesn’t much contradict the D&D write-up), there’s a conversion of… I think it was the Ebberon Firbolg, which itself differs from base D&D Firbolg, there’s umpteen conversions of the Critical Hit Firbolg… but nothing that sticks close to the 5E Firbolg.
And the difficulty for me is that I went and extrapolated a whole culture (albeit a small one - there ain’t many of these folk around) and now all the things that matter to me about my character come from that. So it seems the only way to get a satisfactory Pathfinder 2E ancestry…
… is to build my own. And this is all probably overkill, because half of it won’t get used in my character, but I’m obsessive and frankly there’s an intellectual challenge to it now. And maybe some of you lot will be interested to see it, and maybe you’ll have interesting advice.
Now, before I dump the stats, let me lay down what this Firbolg ancestry is supposed to be. It’s not from Critical Role (I didn’t even know about the famous Firbolg character from that), and it’s not beast-folk, nor even particularly furry. But they are:
- Giant-kin, with cultural connections to giants and feats of strength out of proportion even to their size
- Fey-kin, with similar cultural connections and faerie magic
- Extremely secretive, a hidden folk.
So I’ve been building with the aim to really bring these aspects out. Further, the source material implies that some few Firbolg move in secret among other humanoid species, and my character is one of these. This implies being able to maintain their disguises - typically illusionary, because otherwise at nearly 8 feet tall they really can’t pass for human - for relatively long periods. At least a few hours each day. (And I’ve never used that to pass myself off as a specific other person, or even for infiltration - just for maintaining the secret of my heritage. And not from the other PCs, because that just hasn’t been viable.)
So, all that said, here’s a dump of my write-up - the mechanical parts, because non-system parts don’t really need a re-write. Largely unformatted, in part because this forum doesn’t support much formatting. Not quite complete, but I’m close to out of creativity for now. There’s the ancestry, but also a new spell, a new cantrip, Firbolg favoured weapons, and an archetype (because I don’t think the strength of the abilities required for the long-term disguise and infiltration can fairly be called an Ancestry feat).
Actually, this message is already long, so I’ll add stuff in following posts.
| Travis James Hall |
Firbolg
Hit Points: 8
Size: Medium
Speed: 25 feet
Ability Boosts: Strength Wisdom Free
Ability Flaw: Charisma
Languages: Common, Jotun or Elvish (depending on tribe). Additional languages equal to your Intelligence modifier (if it's positive). Choose from Elvish, Jotun, Sylvan, and any other languages to which you have access (such as the languages prevalent in your region).
Traits: Firbolg, Giant-Kin, Humanoid
Wild Empathy: You have a connection to the creatures of the natural world that allows you to communicate with them on a rudimentary level. You can use Diplomacy to Make an Impression on animals and to make very simple Requests of them. In most cases, wild animals will give you time to make your case.
Ancestry Feats
Has Firbolg Weapon Familiarity, Ancestry Feat 1
Traits: Firbolg
You favor traditional Firbolg weapons, so you've learned how to use them more effectively. You have the trained proficiency with large thrown rocks, the (rock) sling, the (rock) sling staff, and greatclub. You gain access to all uncommon Firbolg weapons. For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial Firbolg weapons are simple weapons and advanced Firbolg weapons are martial weapons.
Firbolg Magic Apprentice, Ancestry Feat 1
Traits: Firbolg
Your connection to the First World grants you a primal innate spell, much like those of the fey. Choose one common cantrip from the primal spell list (page 314) or an uncommon cantrip with the Firbolg trait. You can cast this spell as a primal innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. The cantrips most commonly learnt through this feat are Hidden Step and Detect Magic.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, you must choose a different cantrip.
Speech of Beast, Ancestry Feat 1
Traits: Firbolg
Prerequisites: Wild Empathy (either as Firbolg or Druid)
You hear animal sounds as conversations instead of unintelligent noise, and can respond in turn. You can speak to all animals. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Make an Impression on animals (which usually uses the Diplomacy skill).
Firbolg Magic Initiate, Ancestry Feat 1
Traits: Firbolg
Your connection to the First World grants you a primal innate spell, much like those of the fey. Choose one 1st level spell from the primal spell list (page 314) or an uncommon 1st level primal spell with the Firbolg trait. You can cast this spell as a primal innate spell once each day. If the chosen spell can be heightened, you may heighten it to level 2 after reaching 5th level, and to level 3 after reaching 13th level. The spell most commonly gained with this feat is Firbolg Illusory Disguise.
Powerful Build, Ancestral Feat 1
Traits: Firbolg
You use the following table to determine what the effects of carrying or otherwise attempting to move heavy loads are. (Remember that a dragged load counts as half bulk.)
Bulk Carried
Condition
Speed Adjustment
Up to 5 + Strength
Up to 10 + Strength
Clumsy 1
-5 feet
Up to 15 + Strength
Clumsy 2
-10 feet
Up to 20 + Strength
Clumsy 3
-15 feet
Any effects that modify bulk limits (such as Hefty Hauler) are added to these new limits.
(Comment: table here has been destroyed by the lack of formatting in the forum. I can’t be bothered sorting that at the moment.)
Giant Wrestler, Ancestral Feat 1
Traits: General, Skill
You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to one size larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you have the Titan Wrestler skill feat.
Firbolg Weapon Brute, Feat 5
Traits: Firbolg
Prerequisites: Firbolg Weapon Familiarity
You are attuned to the weapons of your elven ancestors and are particularly deadly when using them. Whenever you critically hit using a Firbolg weapon or one of the weapons listed in Firbolg Weapon Familiarity, you apply the weapon's critical specialization effect.
Speech of Leaf, Ancestry Feat 5
Traits: Firbolg
Prerequisites: Wild Empathy (either as Firbolg or Druid)
Your empathy with the natural world now extends to plants. Communication with plants is often extremely rudimentary, as it is limited by the capabilities of the plant, but sometimes it is possible for you to glean some information from plants about things that concern plants. If encountering a plant creature that is capable of communication with others of its kind, you can tap into the communication, to the extent that the plant creature is capable.
Firbolg Weapon Expertise, Feat 13
Firbolg
Prerequisites: Firbolg Weapon Familiarity
Your Firbolg affinity blends with your class training, granting you great skill with Firbolg weapons. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in a given weapon or weapons, you also gain that proficiency in large thrown rocks, the (rock) sling, the (rock) sling staff, and greatclub, and all Firbolg weapons in which you are trained.
Commentary on the build:
The Wild Empathy is directly ripped from the Druid class. Firbolg are supposed to be inclined towards druidic magic, and what I’m converting from gave them all the ability to speak with animals and plants. Oh, and that’s the fourth thing that was important to me about the ancestry - that really being in tune with and able to communicate with the natural world.
Wild Empathy is not a sense, really, but with no special vision, I think it might be similar enough in application to call it about balanced against the ancestries with low-light vision. And no, this isn’t me trying to give my character a class ability for free, because my character is a druid, so gets it anyway. I get nothing out of adding that to the ancestry except possibly the satisfaction of writing it right.
The Powerful Build is really over-the-top for an ancestry feat compared to something like Hefty Hauler, but on the other hand, Hefty Hauler just doesn’t give that sense of trying giant-ish feats of strength. With it adding no combat abilities, it probably does nothing very significant really (and I’ve written it in such a way that Hefty Hauler even works better for what it’s really for - letting the character have more gear available without penalty). But I’m aware that system experts will probably be able to find something to combine it with that breaks the system. All I can advise there is, just say no to such a character. But on the rare occasions I’ve had a chance to show it, I’ve really liked having my character lift something weighing close to 1000 pounds.
I lack level 9 feats at the moment. I need to find more inspiration for that.
| Travis James Hall |
Firbolg weapons
(I’ve put much of this in a table in my document, but tables don’t seem to be supported on this forum.)
Rock: 1d6 B damage, 1-handed, traits: uncommon, martial, thrown, brutal
Sling (rock), identical to standard slings
Staff Sling (rock), 1d6 B damage but otherwise identical to the halflings staff sling
Greatclub: standard greatclub
Firbolg, like many types of giants, throw rocks. Not little pebbles; these guys are 7.5 feet tall with Jotun musculature. I envision them throwing rocks that are around the size of a lawn bowl - pretty hefty. Hence 1d6 damage, not maybe 1d4 that a human might get when throwing rocks to harm.
And brutal (when thrown by hand). Which is to say, use strength instead of dexterity for the attack bonus. (As thrown weapons, they already use strength for the damage bonus,) For characters who will almost universally have high strength, this is pretty nice, but it seems to me that strength is a bit under-utilised in the system these days, and brutal doesn’t seem more prone to abuse than finesse for the high-Dex characters. (Also, no, my character will not actually have the feat Firbolg Weapon Familiarity, so he can’t use this anyway. Although that one I could see changing in the future.)
Firbolg slings and sling staves are larger than typical, to fire the same rocks that Firbolg like to throw. (They will not work well with ordinary sling bullets, due to the size mismatch.) These statistics assume the rock has been chosen to have a good size and shape for throwing. A badly shaped rock, or one too large or small, might be counted as an improvised weapon (as would any rock used as a melee weapon).
I figure it makes sense for Firbolg to take their natural rock-throwing ability and try to enhance the range on it. Especially because some of them will need range in order to hunt for food for their tribe.
| Travis James Hall |
Firbolg Spells
Hidden Step, Cantrip 1
Traits: Uncommon, Cantrip, Illusion, Firbolg
Traditions: arcane, occult, primal
Cast: 1 action, somatic, verbal
Duration: until the start of your next turn
Cloaked in illusion, you become invisible until the start of your next turn. This makes you undetected to all creatures, though the creatures can attempt to find you, making you hidden to them instead (page 466). If you use a hostile action, the spell ends after that hostile action is completed.
Firbolg Illusory Disguise, Spell 1
Traits: Uncommon, Firbolg, Illusion, Visual
Traditions: primal
Cast: 2 actions, somatic, verbal
Duration 1 hour
You create an illusion that causes you to appear as another creature of the same body shape, and with roughly similar height (within 3 feet, assuming cast by a Firbolg) and weight (within 150 pounds, assuming cast by a Firbolg), as yourself. The disguise is typically good enough to hide your identity, but not to impersonate a specific individual. The spell doesn't change your voice, scent, or mannerisms. You can change the appearance of your clothing and worn items, such as making your armor look like a dress. Held items are unaffected, and any worn item you remove returns to its true appearance. Casting illusory disguise counts as setting up a disguise for the Impersonate use of Deception; it ignores any circumstance penalties you might take for disguising yourself as a dissimilar creature, it gives you a +4 status bonus to Deception checks to prevent others from seeing through your disguise, and you add your level even if you're untrained. You can Dismiss this spell.
Heightened (2nd) The spell also disguises your voice and scent, and it gains the auditory and olfactory traits.
Heightened (3rd) You can appear as any creature of the same size, even a specific individual. You must have seen an individual to take on their appearance. The spell also disguises your voice and scent, and it gains the auditory and olfactory traits.
Commentary: Hidden Step is a fairly direct port of an ability of the same name in D&D 5E. As a cantrips, it can be used more often than the original ability, but it seems to me that it is possibly about the right power level for a cantrip. Firbolg definitely should not be allowed to remain hidden continuously with it. Even if they cast it repeatedly every turn, they should appear briefly and then disappear again.
Firbolg Illusory Disguise is almost identical to Illusory Disguise, except the allowed size adjustment is modified to fit with how the casters start so darn big. The point is to allow the character to pass as a human or even an elf, and it is one of the most central features of the Firbolg I am trying to reproduce. The other adjustment is that it is primal. There is precedent to justify this, in the druid class feat that allows several illusion spells to be added to the primal list, due to their fey connection. I figure adding this Firbolg version onto the primal list helps emphasise the fey-kin aspect of the Firbolg.
(Also, I note that druids and clerics in PF2 can learn spells, somewhat similar to wizards. With that in mind, having a few cultural spells can really help bring out flavour. It makes sense that Firbolg druids will teach this to each other.)
| Travis James Hall |
I got tired, and needed a break before posting the last bit, the archetype. And I’ve just renamed it, because I didn’t like what I was calling it, and giving it an oddball name helps convey cultural flavour.
This is really pretty specific for an archetype. It’s intended to handle specifically Firbolg who travel under illusory disguise, but you could possibly apply it to certain non-Firbolg. Heck, even the trope of the old man who turns out to be a wizard in disguise.
It was my GM who suggested using Illusory Disguise as a focus spell. I’m not sold on the idea, but that’s why it’s in there. (On the one hand, as a focus spell it’s competing with other uses of a very limited resource. On the other hand, refocus would allow my character to change disguises every ten minutes. It has never been my intent to have my character routinely disguising himself as whoever he wants… in part because that’s my character in another D&D campaign. And because I don’t want to warp the game around my character’s ever-present impersonations.)
Otherwise, it’s largely inspired by the Alter Ego archetype from Dark Archive. It’s cut down a lot, because I don’t want the assassin vibe that has, but that’s okay. Not every archetype needs a dozen feats.
Those Who Wander, Archetype
Prerequisites: trained in Deception, and able to cast Illusory Disguise
You are one of very few Firbolg who routinely spend time away from the tribe. Some such are sent on missions into the lands of other peoples, and are charged with maintaining the secrecy of the tribe at almost any cost. Others have been exiled, and yet some of the exiles also maintain their old duty of secrecy (for a tribe they may never see again). Either way, Those Who Wander choose to expand upon their people’s disguise abilities to conceal their true nature to outsiders, even while walking among them.
Those Who Wander Dedication, Feat 2
Traits: Uncommon, Archetype, Dedication
Prerequisites: trained in Deception, and able to cast Illusory Disguise or Firbolg Illusory Disguise
You are now able to cast Illusory Disguise as a Focus Spell.
You become an expert in Deception.
Special: You can't select another dedication feat until you've gained two other feats from the Those Who Wander archetype.
Role Immersion, Skill Feat 4
Traits: Archetype, Skill
You have become adept at constructing new identities, and fully immersing yourself in them.
Assume a Role (concentrate)
Requirements: You've spent at least 1 hour studying a creature whose role you intend to copy and have done so within the last 3 days. This could include meeting and learning from someone in that role, tailing and spying on someone, using magic to observe them at work, or some other method, as long as you have a visual source of information.
Effect: You quickly and accurately learn how to do mundane jobs or at least copy the movements enough to appear as if you do. A chosen role can take many forms—from cook, cleaner, or librarian to cult member, priest, or duke—but it's always a role and never a specific individual.
You perform the Impersonate activity to pass as a member of the role you observed and gain a +1 circumstance bonus to any Deception checks you attempt in your impersonation. This takes the normal amount of time it takes you to Impersonate. You also choose one Lore skill relevant to that role (such as Farming Lore for a farmer). While in your role, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to checks for that Lore skill, and if you're untrained in it, you can use your level as your proficiency bonus. You stop assuming the role after 24 hours, if you start studying for a new role, or if you choose to.
Change of Face, Feat 4
Traits: Archetype
Prerequisites: Those Who Wander Dedication
You have learned to alter the details of your illusory disguise after casting it, allowing you to assume a new disguise without having to cast the spell again.
Fake It Till You Make it, Feat 4
Traits: Archetype
Prerequisites: Those Who Wander Dedication
When you take on a role, you become more capable with all sorts of tasks involving that role. When you Assume a Role, choose two skills associated with the role in some way; if you're untrained, you can use your level as your proficiency bonus for those skills, and you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to skill checks with those skills as long as you remain in that role. You and the GM determine which skills you assume.
In Plain Sight, Skill Feat 4
Traits: Archetype, Skill
Prerequisites: Those Who Wander Dedication
People often only see what they want to see, a weakness you know how to take full advantage of. While you've Assumed a Role, you can use Deception in place of Stealth when using the Avoid Notice exploration activity in an area where someone with your role wouldn't be unusual, such as when impersonating a sailor or fisher when infiltrating the docks.
Illusory Identity, Feat 12
Traits: Uncommon, Archetype, Illusion
Prerequisites: Those Who Wander Dedication
There are times when skills or looks are not enough to convince someone of your identity, and you instead require adequate documentation. You have learned to extend your illusory disguise to forge a new identity as you need it. While under the effects of the spell, when you present a blank piece of paper, journal, badge, or similar item normally used to display authority to another creature, you can use an Interact action to mentally outline the basic information that is displayed, such as a name, a title, connection to an existing group or agency, and other basic details. A more complex outline requires more time, at the GM's discretion. That creature must attempt a Will save against your Deception DC. The illusion is only maintained while you are holding the item, though you can include others within the details of your outline.
Critical Success: The target sees the item as being entirely blank, and becomes immune to this effect until your next daily preparations.
Success: The target sees only the basic information listed out in a simplistic manner, as described in the Interact action. Though not fully convinced, the target plays along, but this worsens the target's attitude toward you by one step.
Failure: The target sees the information presented by the item in the proper format relevant to your situation, with the appropriate language, names, dates, signatures, and other details.
Critical Failure: The target sees the information presented by the item as granting a higher level of authority than anticipated, and immediately treats you with the proper deference. As failure, and the target's attitude toward you immediately improves by one step.
| WatersLethe |
I haven't read through it in detail, but from what I can tell you're doing a bang up job. Looks like you're referencing existing options well for balance and have hit on the key goals you laid out at the start.
I'd also like to give you kudos for understanding what a Firbolg is, since last one I saw on here wanted to make them a Cow-folk which is decidedly not what they are.
I would like to point out that Firbolg Illusory Disguise is probably too short a duration for its intended purpose. I would probably recommend a feat that lets you take on a smaller, specific humanoid form at will, similar to how Battlezoo Dragons does it.
| Travis James Hall |
The duration of Illusory Disguise (Firbolg or otherwise) is a matter of ongoing discussion with my GM. He suggested using something that makes it a Focus Spell, as that will allow my character to cast it, then refocus some time within the following hour, then cast it again before the spells duration expires; lather, rinse, repeat. By doing that, I can keep it up as long as I like… as long as nothing messes up my refocus actions for a full hour or somehow prevents the recast. (Of course, I have to sleep sometime, but honestly that’s a pretty in-theme weakness for a fey ability.)
The downside, of course, is that it can mess around with the economy of other Focus Spells.
This is why I’ve put the Illusory Disguise as a Focus Spell mechanic into the Those Who Wander Dedication Feat. I don’t need every Firbolg to be able to maintain disguises for long periods, just those few agents who go out into the wider world for some reason. For most Firbolg (the ones who can do it at all - as an Ancestry Feat, we can’t expect the whole population to have it) it’s a means of covering their identity quickly during a chance encounter with a non-Firbolg and/or play a trick on them, and an hour will handle that.
I’m not sold on this being a good idea. The Alter Ego archetype has a feat that just lets them assume an illusory disguise (lower case, not as the spell) whenever they wish without needing a spell. We may be better off just adapting that feat instead.
Or making a weaker version of that feat. Really, both of these give my character something I’ve never really wanted - the ability to shift appearance, drastically, on a whim. As a Focus Spell, I’d need ten minutes between shifts. As the Alter Ego feat, it’s even faster. Whereas with this character, I’d be quite happy to be stuck with the one disguise for 8 hours at a time.
(It’s my other D&D character who is intended to shift appearance on a whim. He’s a warlock with Mask of Many Faces, which lets him cast that spell at will.)