Ride-by-Attack


Rules Questions


I have checked all the Paizo forums but the answers contradict each other. I need a clear answer on how the feat ride-by-attack (pathfinder 1) works, specifically:
1. if the mount can also attack during the charge and follow the rider having the feat ride-by-attack.
2. if the charge is directed towards the opponent's square or an adjacent square.
3. if it is necessary to also use the overrun maneuver to bypass the opponent or if ride-by-attack is an exception to the rule of moving through a square occupied by an opponent.


some basics need to be set off first:

A.
most basic thing - normal mounts, that are not class specific and have extra abilities (such as riding horse you buy at the market), must be told what to do (such as to charge) and this might take some actions depending on the action and your ride skill and the mount etc. animal companions are easier to direct and mounts who can understand your speak might be even easier. if you have to use a move action to guide your animal for example you cannot take a full round action in the same round.

B.
when mounted you can have the mount charge without you. which mean you do one thing and it charges. this do not gain any benefit from any mounted-charge related feats\abilities that you might have. in this case the mount charges and follow all the charge rules while you can do what ever you want (with any penalties for doing them on a charging mount if any). you can even dismount and move farther using you move action if you want.

C.
If you want to charge with the mount and make a 'mounted-charge attack' (and benefit from any mounted-charge related feat\ability that you might have. see the linked FAQ). then:

C.1 - both you and the mount need to perform a charge attack together. that mean you both use a full round action and consider it a charge for everything a charge call for. +2 to attack, -2 to ac, straight line etc. since both of you are charging you both get to attack the moment you reach striking distance (this might be different for you and the mount depending on reach, such as lances reach, and the mount's reach with it's attacks).
this also mean that if ether of you can not perform the same charge action then you can not use this joint attack.

C.2 - only you need to have mounted feats\abilities such as ride by attack etc. any non-mounted feat\ability that give a benefit to a charge (such as one that make you able to charge past allies or on rough terrain) must be taken by the mount to benefit from it, but then you do not need to have it.

C.3 - effects that talk about mounted charge, such as a lance that deal more damage on mounted charge, only deal that extra damage when used on a charge of both you and your mount (case C).

------------------------------------------------
now that that is out of the way let's try and answer your questions:

1. when you use ride by attack the mount get to attack and continue it's movement as stated by the feat. it doesn't need to have the feat. only you need it. (taking the feat won't benefit the mount anyway, unless it mount something else by itself)

2. the attack need to hit the enemy so to it's space. again the attack of both you and the mount might happen from different spaces depending on reach.

3. this was answered on the forum before (I might find it if i search real hard) this is a RIDE BY attack. you do not go through the enemies space but the space next to it (think jousting). unlike normal charge that must be directly at the enemy you need to form a straight line that pass next to it with enough distance for at least you to attack (As the feat is yours. some might say you must also allow the mount to have it's attack, but jousting tournaments would be impossible if this is right).
-this is different from normal charge rules where you must move at the enemy and not past it and should have been mentioned in the feat.

if you want to overrun the enemy while mounted-charging it you can. just follow all the overrun charge rules and line up your movement through him instead of by him. same for trample if your mount can charge and trample. (and probably bull-rush as well), mind the one moving is the one doing the maneuvers and must succeed.


a bullrush-charge can probably be done by ether of you. The charging line you make will determine if you pass by and just shove him sideways or go straight at him and 'take him' along. (if you succeed of course).


I agree with A, B, C1, C2, C3 1,2, but I have some doubts about answer 3, i.e. that with the ride-by-attack I have to pass on the "SQUARE" next the target. And this is precisely the reason for my post. If this were the case, i.e. I have to pass to the side, the rider would be too advantaged, because instead of a single trajectory for the charge (straight line), he would have 5: 10 feet to the left of the target with reach weapon, 5 feet to the left of the target, straight on target, 5 feet right of target, 10 feet right of target with weapon reach.
In my opinion the ride-by-attack feat doesn't have to overturn the restrictive rules of charging, it simply allows you to overtake your opponent like in the joust. As you said, in the joust you pass next to your opponent, but always in the SAME SQUARE, not in the adjacent square. SPACE (which is the space managed by the target) must not be confused with the space actually occupied by the target within the SPACE. I made a couple of drawings that show the concept of the difference between SPACE (token) and the space physically occupied by the creature. The pictures show in my opinion how ride-by-attack should be interpreted:

ride-by-attack.

In this way both the charge rule and the ride-by-attack feat are respected, and the rider would be forced to follow only one single trajectory. Overrun is not mentioned in the ride-by-attack feat simply because the charge is already a full-action and would not allow you to use another standard action (overrun) unless using specific feats (for example "charge through"). In charge through, in fact, the overrun occurs in the movement (obstacle along the trajectory) and not in the target that is charged. What do you think about this?


look up ride by in this forum.
there should be a post by a dev with an added sketch that show exactly what i said. normal ride by is passing by. not going through.

If i can find it later i will post it here, but at work atm.

also this is less then fly by which let you use any standard action or spring attack which doesn't provoke. with ride by unless using reach you and your mount provoke from the target.


Probably this post.
There was originally an image he made to go with it, but that seems to have disappeared from the internet


oh no, it's there.
thx for help finding it.

it's a few posts later on. found it below: here
you can see his diagram the charger goes next to the target instead of at it.

also note, he make a very important remark that many miss about charging:

"Yeah, not closest in terms of distance from your starting point, but in terms of "this is the first square along my path where I could attack this guy."

The Exchange

Important to note that Sean K. Reynolds was one of the original designers of the PF1 ruleset. And was a Paizo employee and head of the rules response team when he posted that you aimed to pass beside your opponent with a ride-by attack.

Hyperliteralism has been the bane of the rules forum since the first release of PF1. Many of Sean’s posts contain some variation on "It works because that's what it's supposed to do. Use common sense, people."


The restrictive but ambiguous wording of the Charge rules created the problem. "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge."
Closest to what? Closest to the enemy? Closest to where you started the charge from? Do you have to use the route that gets you to the closest possible point, or does it just refer to the closest point on your chosen route?

It's a lot easier to just ignore that bit of the rule...


Matthew Downie wrote:
The restrictive but ambiguous wording of the Charge rules created the problem. "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge."

My interpretation of that line has always been basically "your line can't pass through a square that you could have made the attack from. E.g. if you're squarely facing an enemy, you can charge to either of the "closest" squares, even if the ones on the corners of the creature are technically marginally farther away, but you can't charge to the squares behind those and on the creature's side. Basically you can't charge past someone to get free flanking, even if you would provoke to do so.

Assuming two M sized creatures:
X=Empty Space
E=Enemy
U=You
V=Valid charge square
N=Invalid charge square

XXUXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XVVVX
XNENX
XNNNX
XXXXX

It's also more relevant for say creatures with reach, or just bigger creatures. Those big creatures can't charge a smaller creature and go until they are adjacent to the smaller creature in order to force them to have to provoke to disengage.


My interpretation on initially reading that rule was that a huge monster with 15-foot reach had to keep going until it was adjacent to the smaller creature, because that was the closest square (to the target), and because it feels more like a charge if it can't stop early due to momentum. That also meant the huge creature couldn't force the smaller creature to provoke in order to engage.

I suspect your interpretation is RAI, but I still hate the rule.

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