Is the Explosive Calligraphy alchemist discovery permanent?

[RedOvermorrow]

So. Per Explosive Calligraphy, it acts like Explosive Runes except in the amount of damage dealt. Explosive Runes has a duration of "permanent until discharged". Since Explosive Calligraphy acts like Explosive Runes, it should also have a duration of "permanent until discharged", right? My DM is saying it expires after a day, but there's nothing in the rules that I can find to support that reading. I want to pair it with Healing Bomb, which would make for a scroll usable by anyone that explodes with healing magic when read. In the making, it would suck up a Cure extract. Apparently it would "lose potency after 24 hours" like an extract would. But per Healing Bomb, the extract is expended. It's not suspended in there somehow, it's fully used up to create the magic that goes into the Healing Bomb. So who's right here? Is it permanent, or does it disappear after a day?

[Pizza Lord]

Okay, this is not supported by Rules, so I am only giving my opinion on how I would rule it. First off, Explosive Calligraphy is permanent. Period. For sure. Once you ink them, they're in existence and potent until discharged or dispelled.

Next, if you use a potion with a cure effect. Same deal, no change. Make as many runes as you want. Now you have an object with a rune that when read basically hits the reader for the cure effect and also anyone nearby for minimum 'damage', likely 1 + CL. Not a bad deal for getting an AoE heal effect (but it will hit enemies).

So now we're trying to figure out how using a cure-infused extract to make your explosive calligraphy would work in the rules. Normally you have an allotment of extracts per day. They last one day and are inert out of your possession. You need infusion to make a healing bomb. An infusion doesn't say it makes the extract last longer, only make it potent away from the alchemist.

We know you can use a cure infused extract to make explosive calligraphy, so that's not an issue. It can be done. These are things we know.

My ruling:

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This is where I am making my own ruling. It's not supported by a stated rule.

The issue is: does the calligraphy remain potent beyond 24 hours using an infusion? I would say that it does.
Does the infused extract used still take up an allotment slot while the explosive runes exist? I would say that it does.

The healing bomb/calligraphy would be in what I consider a state of unused limbo. Just like mixing a cure infusion, it takes your slot until used (or a day passes). Yes, you expend the extract to infuse the runes, but technically, the healing bomb created is still in existence.

Reasoning: It is clear that they want healing bombs to have a cost to allow into existence (a cure potion or expenditure of extract slots), or to be mixed and used immediately as a bomb (which is also a limited resource). Allowing someone to churn out unlimited cure scrolls (better, since they're AoE and also usable by anyone) would not fit the game's usual operation or structure. Yes, it's limited by the number of extracts you can do per day, but otherwise you could spend 4 days and get a number of healing calligraphy items equal to any slot that you put a cure into, which should be every slot. At no cost, unlike making normal scrolls or potions or even a healing bust bomb with a potion.
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TL/DR
My call is that, in essence, you do expend the infused extract to inscribe the healing bomb explosive calligraphy, so it isn't in existence to lose potency after 24 hours. The healing calligraphy is permanent. However, the power and 'bomb' and effect is still in existence, so it should use your slot until the rune is discharged. So you can make as many such runes as you have extract slots, and they will remain, but this prevents a character from just spending several days just pumping out permanent (if single-use) healing items that are better in effect than their counterparts, and basically for free. You can do it, and it works, but you need to use the created runes, just like you would with an extract, infusion, or bomb in a day. You can hold them, but you don't get the slot back until it's used.

Just like they don't let creatures with energy drain just sit around and constantly drain a bunch of summoned monsters or captives and have super-charged overclocked temporary hit points just before fighting the PCs. It's a mechanic's effect or ruling that acts as power mitigator and limiter.

[Diego Rossi]

I agree with Pizza Lord.

To put it another way: you don't get to stack healing bombs for free for days or weeks.

[AwesomenessDog]

Diego Rossi wrote:

I agree with Pizza Lord.

To put it another way: you don't get to stack healing bombs for free for days or weeks.

Yeah if you want to cheese free potions day over day, go play herbalist druid. /uj

[Diego Rossi]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

I agree with Pizza Lord.

To put it another way: you don't get to stack healing bombs for free for days or weeks.

Yeah if you want to cheese free potions day over day, go play herbalist druid. /uj

Until 7th level, Druid herbalism requires the same time as making a potion, so no "mass brewing" before that point. Then the druid, if he wants something that lasts more than a day, is limited to 2d8+1/level (his 3rfìd level healing spell). And need to have the spells memorized, so little "By the end of the day I make as many concoctions as I have unused spell slots".

At level 7th making 5 concoctions healing 2d8+7 will eat all of his 3rd level spells and "store" cure potential of 80 hp as an average.

Compare that to 1d6*lvel/2+int bonus, plus splash area, xlevel+int bonus, made every day and lasting forever. It starts at the 6th level, so something like 9 "fake scrolls" 3d6+3 + 3d1+3 for adjacent creatures made every day.
That would allow the alchemist to store a potential 121.5 of direct cures plus 54 for each adjacent bystander (up to 8) every day.

And that is comparing a 7th-level druid output to a 6th-level alchemist output. As the levels increase it becomes even worse.

The druid can make concoctions that have other effects, and the alchemist is way more limited, but the difference in stored healing is staggering.

The right comparison would be to compare the alchemist to a cleric who can "store" positive channeling.

[AwesomenessDog]

I think your missing the opening parts of the (busted) ability:

Druidic Herbalism wrote:

A druid who chooses to learn druidic herbalism can use combinations of nuts, berries, dried herbs, and other natural ingredients along with appropriate containers to create herbal concoctions or magic consumables that function like potions. This acts like the Brew Potion feat, but only for spells on the druid spell list. Herbal concoctions are typically thick and sludgy, and their creation time, caster level, spell duplication capabilities, and all other variables and properties are identical to those of potions created using Brew Potion. Herbal concoctions created with herbs that cause special effects when ingested retain those effects as well as the appropriate spell effect.

A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Additional concoctions cost the same as creating an equivalent potion using Brew Potion. Druids can sell their herbal concoctions just as if they were potions (though NPCs unfamiliar with druidic herbalism may need some convincing before purchasing these wares).

The first bolded part overrides the normal rule of one magic item made per day. And considering even without the ability to rush the crafting, it takes only 2 hours to make the fastest potion, you can indeed mass craft 4 potions a day, and either immediately sell them, or just start hoarding them in downtime as they never have an expiration by their own rules (they are in all but name a potion once made). If they want to make more than their wisdom per day, that's when they have to pay.

Throw this into a Kingmaker game and the economy is ruined.

[Diego Rossi]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

I think your missing the opening parts of the (busted) ability:

Druidic Herbalism wrote:

A druid who chooses to learn druidic herbalism can use combinations of nuts, berries, dried herbs, and other natural ingredients along with appropriate containers to create herbal concoctions or magic consumables that function like potions. This acts like the Brew Potion feat, but only for spells on the druid spell list. Herbal concoctions are typically thick and sludgy, and their creation time, caster level, spell duplication capabilities, and all other variables and properties are identical to those of potions created using Brew Potion. Herbal concoctions created with herbs that cause special effects when ingested retain those effects as well as the appropriate spell effect.

A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Additional concoctions cost the same as creating an equivalent potion using Brew Potion. Druids can sell their herbal concoctions just as if they were potions (though NPCs unfamiliar with druidic herbalism may need some convincing before purchasing these wares).

The first bolded part overrides the normal rule of one magic item made per day. And considering even without the ability to rush the crafting, it takes only 2 hours to make the fastest potion, you can indeed mass craft 4 potions a day, and either immediately sell them, or just start hoarding them in downtime as they never have an expiration by their own rules (they are in all but name a potion once made). If they want to make more than their wisdom per day, that's when they have to pay.

Throw this into a Kingmaker game and the economy is ruined.

1)

CRB, p. 551 wrote:

Brewing a potion requires 1 day.

It doesn't override the time needed to make it until level 4h, and at that point, it requires half a day.

Quote:

It takes her only half the normal time to create her concoctions, and she can create concoctions of spells from any spell list, as long as she can cast the spell.

At level 7th it becomes even faster:

Quote:

Additionally, at 7th level, a druid can create any herbal concoction in 1 minute.

but it is still limited to 6-7 free potions of cure moderate wounds for each day of work even at high levels.

2) An alchemist needs only a standard action to make a miny-channel scroll and can make at least ten of them in a day, going to twenty and above at a high level.

3) You aren't considering what you expend for the two abilities: 2 alchemical discoveries on one side and your nature bond on the other. The "price" is a bit different.

Druid Herbalism isn't an efficient way to store cures, it is an efficient way to store level 1-3 spells where the caster level matters, but the druid spell list isn't famous for those.

- * -

Speaking of broken abilities, what is the action cost of activating the Explosive Calligraphy?
Can I glue a few of them on the inside of my shield and activate them with a glance?
As Explosive runes was created as a trap spell that question wasn't really relevant to it, but is relevant when it becomes a healing scroll.

[Azothath]

First part - your GM exercised his right to modify RAW to suit what he felt was appropriate. It was a bit severe but IMO he should have restricted you to one active use at a time rather than use a time limit.

Second part - a side argument over Druid Herbalist.

[Pizza Lord]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Speaking of broken abilities, what is the action cost of activating the Explosive Calligraphy?

Can I glue a few of them on the inside of my shield and activate them with a glance?
As Explosive runes was created as a trap spell that question wasn't really relevant to it, but is relevant when it becomes a healing scroll.

Purposefully reading the calligraphy is likely a standard action or more likely subsumed in the action you take that reads it (if you weren't specifically trying to read the runes or didn't know about them when you examined the writing).

You have to read it, not just see it like a glyph or symbol (it even specifies its range or effective damage as being people immediately close enough to read it, whether they were reading it or not when someone else triggered it).

This would keep it in line with the actions for activating similar items, like scrolls and potions (though I would rule it doesn't provoke).

I wonder if you can pen an explosive calligraphy scroll... and have it trigger while simultaneously reading activating the scroll? Obviously for a healing burst (if it damaged the reader that might disrupt the scroll). I know writing a scroll takes special inks, but does that mean you couldn't pen a healing burst calligraphy into a scroll of cure light wounds and thus trigger the burst as you complete the spell (and can then touch yourself or another target)? Probably not, that would be a bit cheesy.

[AwesomenessDog]

Diego Rossi wrote:

1)

CRB, p. 551 wrote:

Brewing a potion requires 1 day.

It doesn't override the time needed to make it until level 4h, and at that point, it requires half a day.

I'm sorry what?

Brew Potion wrote:

Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures or objects. Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

Never mind even when you hit level 3 and can cast CMW, that Spellcraft 8 DC only requires a single skill rank to double the crafting rate.

[Diego Rossi]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

1)

CRB, p. 551 wrote:

Brewing a potion requires 1 day.

It doesn't override the time needed to make it until level 4h, and at that point, it requires half a day.

I'm sorry what?

Brew Potion wrote:

Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures or objects. Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

Never mind even when you hit level 3 and can cast CMW, that Spellcraft 8 DC only requires a single skill rank to double the crafting rate.

AoN wrote:

Cure Moderate Wounds

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 263
School conjuration (healing); Level adept 2, alchemist 2, bard 2, cleric 2, druid 3, hunter 3, inquisitor 2, investigator 2, occultist 2, oracle 2, paladin 3, ranger 3, shaman 2, skald 2, spiritualist 2, warpriest 2, witch 2
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will half (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless); see text
Description
This spell functions like cure light wounds, except that it cures 2d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +10).

It is a 3rd-level spell for a druid, and making a druid "potion" of CMW costs 750 gp, so a druid needs 8 hours to make it (4 if hurrying, so a herbalist druid can make 2 in a day by increasing the DC).

[AwesomenessDog]

First you forgot the halving of time from level 4, so that's 4 potions a day. And that is assuming the druid *only* spends 8 hours creating the concoctions, which is a limitation for normal item creation, but presumably not this, especially as are given explicit breakage of being able to make potentially far more, as per the druid's wisdom.

Either way, even allowing a player to bank 750gp per day, especially as early as level 5, or even just the actual potions instead, is insane. That's 7% of their WBL per day at a minimum interpretation of the RAW. Never mind late game you can crap out 9th level potions for 3,825gp profit a potion, somewhere around 10 times a day, in the course of 1 a minute, for a similar % of WBL, never mind the spell storing power, and the one of a kind ability to make 3-9th level potions that even the alchemist can't duplicate.

Derail over, my joke was valid, I don't know why I had to justify it either way.