Double Slice used as a grapple attack


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


New to Pathfinder DM here. I have a player who is very clever and experienced, and he is building a character around a bastard sword and spiked gauntlet duo. His plan is to attack with the Bsword, and grapple with the gauntlet as part of the double slice feat. As I read the feat, this is not an option that Double Slice allows for, rather what it does allow for is to let him attack with the gauntlet for it's damage. Also, are there any limitations on what weapons can be wielded once a grapple is initiated? I've a very difficult time imagining a massive Bsword being used effectively while grappling an opponent.


This is an odd corner case.

IMO, I would just roll with it and sub the Grapple effect (it is still a strike) for the Gauntlet's damage.

IIRC, there's no rule for it, but my personal house-rule for dealing damage to grappled characters in the situation you describe is that the grappling character can only use agile weapons to make additional attacks. So their bastard sword would be right out...(but they can always free-action drop it, whip out a dagger, and Bob's your uncle).


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Subordinate Actions.

Double Slice says to make two Strike actions. You cannot substitute a Grapple action for one of the Strike actions.

There is also Snagging Strike and Combat Grab - which are other Fighter feats next to Double Slice. A gauntlet is a Free Hand weapon, so those feats would still have their free hand requirement met.

Flurry of Maneuvers looks like it might be relevant, but it is a Monk feat and at best would only be usable with Monk weapons. Maybe there is some way of getting it to work. Also, it would be a good basis for a homebrew feat.


Interesting distinction. If the OP wants to take the rules lawyer approach then they should interpret the RAW you have there.

If they want to lean into a modicum of realism and build up some player good will; they might consider making a RAI* interpretation and substitute the word "Attack" for the word "Strike" in your bit of quoted rules.

After 36-years of tinkering with game mechanics and DMing, I find that either approach is valid and beneficial and should ultimately be up to the DM and their table.

Personally, I like award novel uses of game systems that support role-play-adjacent activities and feels so I'm inclined to RAI* here.

*And, in this instance the "intention" portion of RAI really means the DM's intention. As the game runner, they have the often thankless task of ensuring everyone's having a good time. IMO, any DM has warrant to twist around the a TTRPG's rules as needed to achieve that goal. No one should feel that anyone's being a jerk because some text on paper says "X."


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Jacob Jett wrote:

Interesting distinction. If the OP wants to take the rules lawyer approach then they should interpret the RAW you have there.

If they want to lean into a modicum of realism and build up some player good will; they might consider making a RAI* interpretation and substitute the word "Attack" for the word "Strike" in your bit of quoted rules.

Certainly. The First Rule is one of my favorites.

But it can also be abused by certain types of players. Everyone should be aware that tweaking the ability of Double Slice to give a Strike, Grapple combination with the MAP increase delayed until after the Grapple is a boon that the GM is giving - not something that they should expect to be given every time they come up with a 'creative' solution to a challenge in the game or the rules.

Also, Combat Grab may be better than even this modified version of Double Slice. Combat Grab is one action instead of two, it only increases MAP once, and it only requires the Strike to succeed (there is no Athletics check asked for). It does have the Press trait though, so there is that.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Your "very clever and experienced" player is trying to get around the deliberate limitations of being unable to get a full bonus Grab with his second action and is preying on your inexperience.

Assuming we're talking about a Fighter, there already exists a feat that does something similar to what he's looking for: Combat Grab. It's easily attainable at 2nd level. It does exactly what he wants to accomplish. But, alas, it has the Press trait so he can only use it once he's already at MAP. He can also just...Strike and then Grab, but again that's MAP on the Grab. I think this is part of the intended system design. Even a Flurry of Maneuver Monk can't do what your player wants to do by twisting your arm. Further, compare what he wants versus Knockdown as a 4th level feat. Why should he be able to replicate that power at 1st level?

Alternatively he can also take Snagging Strike at 1st level which also imposes off-guard, and gives him most of what he wants too minus the actually grabbed component. This is all easily attainable core stuff that doesn't require special rules modification. Hold your ground.

As for the kinds of attacks you can make once a grapple is initiated, there is no such limitation beyond being unable to attack with 2-handed weapons you're no longer wielding in 2-hands. If I had to wager, it seems like your optimization-focused player is probably going to make the first attack of his Twin Strike using the bastard sword's 2-handed trait and then free action drop his grip to complete the activity. I'm not 100% clear on whether RAW untriggered free actions can occur in the middle of an activity, but I'm not against the idea enough to put up a fight about it.

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JBeadle wrote:
New to Pathfinder DM here. I have a player who is very clever and experienced, and he is building a character around a bastard sword and spiked gauntlet duo. His plan is to attack with the Bsword, and grapple with the gauntlet as part of the double slice feat. As I read the feat, this is not an option that Double Slice allows for, rather what it does allow for is to let him attack with the gauntlet for it's damage.

Correct. Note that the player could also just make a normal Strike with the bastard sword, and then use another action to make a grab attempt. What he can't do however, is use Double Slice to avoid the multiple attack penalty on that grab attempt. Because grabbing isn't a Strike.

Another way to go about it is to use Snagging Strike on the first attack with the bastard sword, which sort of semi grabs someone, by making them flat-footed. But snagging strike doesn't quite grab someone. But then you could follow up with another Combat Grab attack. It has the Press trait, so you can't do it with your first attack. So Combat Grab is always at multiple attack penalty. But if you first used Snagging Strike, the enemy is also at a disadvantage, so it balances out a little bit.

So the "clever and experienced" thing your player is asking for is actually to not need to use the intended feats, but get to use a different one that isn't intended for that, and with better numbers. I don't know if there was any cheesy intent, but it's not how the game is intended. Fighters are already a strong class, they really don't need extra giveaways.

Quote:
Also, are there any limitations on what weapons can be wielded once a grapple is initiated? I've a very difficult time imagining a massive Bsword being used effectively while grappling an opponent.

Let's start by taking a moment to talk about what a "grapple" is in PF2. A grapple is NOT holding down someone down with both hands. A grapple requires you to have one free hand. So basically, you're grabbing on to someone with one hand and that somewhat limits their movement (making them flat-footed) and prevents them from just walking away (making them immobilized). It's not a full-body wrestling thing that requires both of your hands.

So you can definitely grapple someone with your one hand, and wield your bastard sword with the other hand. You couldn't do that with for example a greatsword, which can only be wielded in two hands. But a bastard sword is designed for people who want to give up a bit of pure damage for a bit of extra flexibility.

Now, is it convenient to use a bastard sword and grapple at the same time? Not enormously, but the rules actually cover that. Grappling has an attack trait, so it also counts for your multiple attack penalty. If you grab someone and then attack them with your bastard sword, on the one hand they can't defend themselves as well. But on the other hand, you're also taking multiple attack penalty with your bastard sword. You could go for a smaller kind of sword that you would imagine is more convenient for that, like a short sword. And short swords happen to have the Agile trait, so indeed they are easier to use for second and third attacks.


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xcmt wrote:
If I had to wager, it seems like your optimization-focused player is probably going to make the first attack of his Twin Strike using the bastard sword's 2-handed trait and then free action drop his grip to complete the activity. I'm not 100% clear on whether RAW untriggered free actions can occur in the middle of an activity, but I'm not against the idea enough to put up a fight about it.

No. Simultaneous Actions. You have to do an activity such as Double Slice uninterrupted by even Free actions. Only Free Actions with triggers can bypass that, and Release doesn't have a trigger.

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Jacob Jett wrote:

Interesting distinction. If the OP wants to take the rules lawyer approach then they should interpret the RAW you have there.

If they want to lean into a modicum of realism and build up some player good will; they might consider making a RAI* interpretation and substitute the word "Attack" for the word "Strike" in your bit of quoted rules.

After 36-years of tinkering with game mechanics and DMing, I find that either approach is valid and beneficial and should ultimately be up to the DM and their table.

Personally, I like award novel uses of game systems that support role-play-adjacent activities and feels so I'm inclined to RAI* here.

*And, in this instance the "intention" portion of RAI really means the DM's intention. As the game runner, they have the often thankless task of ensuring everyone's having a good time. IMO, any DM has warrant to twist around the a TTRPG's rules as needed to achieve that goal. No one should feel that anyone's being a jerk because some text on paper says "X."

I think you're going a little fast here.

The general idea of what the player wants to do is already available in the game system: hitting with weapons and grabbing enemies. There's multiple ways to do it. What the player is asking for is an extra way with more advantageous numbers.

Now you can say, give the player what he wants, get some goodwill. But what about the other players who aren't playing fighters? They're seeing one player get a bonus. While the fighter is already considered one of the strongest classes to begin with. So the average amount of goodwill around the table might actually go down...


Jacob Jett wrote:

Interesting distinction. If the OP wants to take the rules lawyer approach then they should interpret the RAW you have there.

If they want to lean into a modicum of realism and build up some player good will; they might consider making a RAI* interpretation and substitute the word "Attack" for the word "Strike" in your bit of quoted rules.

Except it's definitely not RAI here. Not sure what RAI* means.

All this well and good, but the question is why isn't this clever player satisfied with the normal ways to do what he intended? Meaning two normal actions or specific feats. Why should GM just give him what he wants? Because the plot and fantasy is already there. It's not broken or bad mechanics as is. And just wanting better numbers is not good enough reasoning.
Players also need to earn good will.


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Thank you for the responses, I do appreciate them. First, I was incorrect in what he was intending, he explained to me more clearly that his build was for versatility, not to try to milk double slice for a free grab. I misunderstood his intent. Second, I've been running games for 45 years, I know a little bit about DMing, and one thing I also know is not to make modifications to a system until you have essentially mastered it, because you may unintentionally break something if you do. PF2e seems to have had a lot of careful thought put into the system, so I do not plan on changing anything up front, I just want to know what the system is actually built to allow, and so for now I don't wish to house rule anything right away.

He agrees that double slice doesn't allow either a snag or a combat grab (once he has that feat) to be used in conjunction, so all is copasetic.


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Oh, and he is my best friend, he wouldn't take advantage, he's a great DM in his own right.


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JBeadle wrote:

Thank you for the responses, I do appreciate them. First, I was incorrect in what he was intending, he explained to me more clearly that his build was for versatility, not to try to milk double slice for a free grab. I misunderstood his intent. Second, I've been running games for 45 years, I know a little bit about DMing, and one thing I also know is not to make modifications to a system until you have essentially mastered it, because you may unintentionally break something if you do. PF2e seems to have had a lot of careful thought put into the system, so I do not plan on changing anything up front, I just want to know what the system is actually built to allow, and so for now I don't wish to house rule anything right away.

He agrees that double slice doesn't allow either a snag or a combat grab (once he has that feat) to be used in conjunction, so all is copasetic.

Good philosophy to have.

As for friends not taking advantage. I still remember an experienced friend of mine laughing about what a new starfinder GM had let him get away with and saying "well, he should have thought about the interactions more, I provided him with all of my sheets". So value those well intentioned friends, some people are just not as well reasoned :)


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I'm especially blessed with very good friends that I in no way deserve, so yes, I agree I value them very highly.

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Talking of happier takes -

I've seen someone play a Snagging Strike/Combat Grab based build all the way from level 1 to 20, and it performed really well. It's not the most damaging fighter build, but it turned out to be a really strong teamplayer build.

Snagging and grabbing enemies helped the rest of the party a lot, with providing flat-footed enemies for ranged characters to snipe at. Also, we fought a fair amount of evil casters, and they did NOT enjoy being grabbed by a fighter with attacks of opportunity.

So while on the surface Double Slice and two-handed weapons are really obvious hard-hitting choices, I think this "one hand empty" fighter type is a fine choice for someone who enjoys playing the clever warrior.

And it indeed does have some nice versatility - a free hand allows you to easily do maneuvers, open doors, drink potions, throw some javelins and so on.

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