Bard's Countersong and Critical Success / Failure

[happykj]

Countersong (Su): At 1st level, a bard learns to counter magic effects that depend on sound (but not spells that have verbal components.) Each round of the countersong he makes a Perform (keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard’s Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a non-instantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard’s Perform skill check result for the save. Countersong does not work on effects that don’t allow saves. Countersong relies on audible components.

so the countersong allows you to use the bard’s Perform check to replace your saving throw result. But is it considered as a Critical Success if the Perform Check is natural 20?

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you are asking if a natural 20 on the perform check means the character makes the save regardless of the DC, then it does. Countersong states you use the perform check in place of its saving throw. Since a natural 20 always makes the save, a natural 20 on the perform check would count as rolling a natural 20 for your save.

[AwesomenessDog]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If you are asking if a natural 20 on the perform check means the character makes the save regardless of the DC, then it does. Countersong states you use the perform check in place of its saving throw. Since a natural 20 always makes the save, a natural 20 on the perform check would count as rolling a natural 20 for your save.

I'm not entirely sure this is true, using the check just means you use the total (skill) result, and while a save roll can nat 20, the point here is just to check if the skill roll total is better than the DC. On the other hand, this might be an almost universally moot point, as very rarely will you encounter a DC harder than a bard's even nat 1 on a perform skill. (So maybe it's relevant in the opposite direction, but either way I think I'm on the side of using a skill result doesn't carry with it the natural die result.)

[Diego Rossi]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If you are asking if a natural 20 on the perform check means the character makes the save regardless of the DC, then it does. Countersong states you use the perform check in place of its saving throw. Since a natural 20 always makes the save, a natural 20 on the perform check would count as rolling a natural 20 for your save.

I'm not entirely sure this is true, using the check just means you use the total (skill) result, and while a save roll can nat 20, the point here is just to check if the skill roll total is better than the DC. On the other hand, this might be an almost universally moot point, as very rarely will you encounter a DC harder than a bard's even nat 1 on a perform skill. (So maybe it's relevant in the opposite direction, but either way I think I'm on the side of using a skill result doesn't carry with it the natural die result.)

I agree with AwesomenessDog.

You don't use the dice roll, you use the result of the check.

Quote:

creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard’s Perform check result in place of its saving throw if,

The result of the dice you rolled stays the same. You completely substitute it with the result of the skill check. As it is a skill check it doesn't matter if the skill check dice roll was a 1 or a 20, only the total matters.