Do the provisions of these spells which suppress ongoing fear effects automatically work against any fear effect, no matter the source / level / power? For example, the frightful presence of an Ancient Red Dragon or a Fear spell (level 4) cast by a 20th level wizard. There is also a will save for these spells, which I am not clear about.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/remove-fear/
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/unbreakable-heart/
reflactions wrote: Do the provisions of these spells which suppress ongoing fear effects automatically work against any fear effect, no matter the source / level / power? Yes. If you have a fear effect on you at the time either of these spells are cast upon you, that effect is suppressed for the duration of the spell (10 minutes for remove fear or 1 round/level for unbreakable heart).
It doesn't matter if it's an ancient red dragon's fear aura or a 20th-level caster's fear spell. It is suppressed. In the case of remove fear, very few fear effects will outlast 10 minutes, but unbreakable heart could wear off before the fear effect ends. An exception to this would be the case of cause fear specifically being on the target, which would just be dispelled by remove fear.
Note that if remove fear or unbreakable heart are already in effect on the target when they receive a fear effect, they will still need to make a save (with a +4 bonus), which means a 20th-level caster or ancient dragon's DC might still overcome their saving throw. It's important to realize that having remove fear cast does not count as making the saving throw (which typically would grant immunity to a frightful presence ability for 24 hours, though some creatures might differ). So if you fail your save against a dragon's frightful presence and become shaken or panicked (typically triggered when it attacks or does something deemed as threatening), then receive remove fear it will suppress that effect, but if that dragon makes another attack in your presence, that will trigger a whole new save (with a +4 bonus).
reflactions wrote: There is also a will save for these spells, which I am not clear about. Magic wrote: (harmless)
The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
The saving throws listed on both these spells are also tagged as (harmless), which basically means a saving throw is not called for unless the target specifically asks for one. This can be important in cases where a target is unconscious or unable to voluntarily accept a spell. Because being unconscious or sleeping doesn't mean you don't still get a saving throw against spells or effects (although your Reflex save probably sucks since you count as having a Dex of 0 in most cases). Otherwise unconscious allies would potentially be making saving throws against healing magics and end up getting screwed (or at least only getting half healing).
For instance, while being unconscious or sleeping makes you automatically count as a 'willing target' for spells, not all spells have a 'willing target' clause in them. But a (harmless) spell can be cast on a creature without it's permission and not receive a save unless specifically called for. So if you're unconscious and someone casts charm person on you, you still get a saving throw, but if they cast teleport, you wouldn't because you count as willing and the spell has a willing clause in it.
Note the listing for the cure light wounds spell where it lists it as '(harmless)' but adds 'see text'. Most creatures will not suffer any ill effects from such spells, even if cast on them by an enemy, but in the case of undead (or presumably any creature that would be harmed by positive energy) it is not listed as (harmless), they get a Will save for half damage. But, in some rare case where a target doesn't want to gain hit points, like... maybe you're fighting on the Positive Energy plane and having too many hit points or temporary hit point might make you explode... then a creature is allowed to save against even a (harmless) spell if they really want to.
reflactions wrote: There is also a will save for these spells, which I am not clear about.
Those spells are normally cast on allies that will accept them.
But there are several possible scenarios where the target:
- don't know what you are doing and don't trust you;
- because the effect of some spell or ability isn't your ally anymore (as an example, Confusion);
- because of some class feature (superstitious barbarian) he will not be willing to accept any spell;
- for cultural reasons, he refuses your spells (an inhabitant of Quadira when the caster is a follower of Iomedae).
Some of those are role-playing based.
Will the frightened peasant accept a spell from an unknown person?
It will change if the person is using a holy symbol of a respected or hate deity?
Others are class or situation-based.
Thanks for for the very clear responses. I do understand the works based on RAW at this point.
Is it just me, or are those not extremely powerful effects for first level spells: The ability to completely negate the fear effect without a chance of failure.
Compared to other works which require opposed rolls or which automatically work but are much higher level.
reflactions wrote: Is it just me, or are those not extremely powerful effects for first level spells: The ability to completely negate the fear effect without a chance of failure.
I suppose they could be considered powerful in that they can suppress a fear effect regardless of its power, but it does require the caster to basically do it after the target has been affected (otherwise they have a relatively short duration and don't grant immunity, only a bonus to save). Depending on the fear, your ally might have already dropped their items or taken off running. Casting them in combat isn't really efficient (although it could make a huge difference) and as pointed out they don't prevent reapplications of fear or make the target immune to the fear being suppressed since it doesn't count as making a save against it.
Basically, sure, they're very potent... but against a specific effect (barring unbreakable heart working against some other effects), which is also one of the easiest effects to get resistance or immunity to in most cases.
Well, that makes sense.
To give some background, the party consists of an oracle who spammed it against a wendigo's howl fear effect, essentially negating the effect.
So, I will chalk this up to perhaps being one of those cases where, yeah, the party has a character who happens to be well tuned for this specific kind of case, and shouldn't be punished for it.
Thanks again for the helpful and thoughtful comments.
reflactions wrote: To give some background, the party consists of an oracle who spammed it Yeah, except for the suppression of ongoing fear, the spells are basically equivalent to standing within 10 feet of a 3rd-level paladin.
Wendigo is about CR 17, so if I assume your PCs are 16 or so, an oracle could have plenty of 1st-level spells to use to cast remove fear. At that level they'd be able to get 4 to 5 targets. So yeah, they could theoretically cast it immediately after the wendigo howled and pretty much negate the wendigo's action (obviously it's also relying on the oracle not failing their save against the fear as well, but they do have good Will saves).
Realistically though... the oracle would have had to either ready their action or hold it until immediately after the wendigo. If that's what they did, then that is definitely just good tactical strategy. Otherwise, looking at the wendigo's howl, that's pretty scary. Basically panicked or cowering in fear if they fail a DC 28 Will save. Which isn't an easy save.
The situation normally would play out with the wendigo howling and anyone not cowering would be panicked, which means they must drop anything they are holding and flee at top speed. So unless the oracle moved before anyone else, their allies would have run out of range or require chasing and even if the fear was removed... they'd have to pick up their weapons or items. That's assuming every target was within 30 feet of each other.
If that happened twice, I imagine the wendigo, which isn't stupid, would likely hold or ready its action until after the oracle and then howl, giving all the party members that failed their save a full round of actions before the oracle could react to cast remove fear, but I don't know how it really played out and anything is possible. In either case, the party members that failed would still end up being shaken after 10 minutes (when remove fear ends), since the shaken effects lasts for one hour.
It is already implied in Pizza Lord posts, but it is important to note that "dropping the held items" when panicked is a free action that you can (and in this instance, are forced to) take outside your turn, so the panicked guys would have dropped their weapons as soon as they were affected by the condition.
If the oracle had a ready action of "I will cast remove fear as soon as the Wendigo howl" or something similar, it is possible that he could prevent that.
The sequence of Free action vs. Readied actions as a consequence of an event is always a bit iffy.
Another thing to consider is that anyone acting after the Wendigo but before the Oracle will have already acted for the round. The panicked characters will have moved away at top speed, the cowering ones will have taken no action. Readying an action is still an action, and someone who is cowering can take no action. While Delaying is technically no action, I would not allow a cowering character to delay. The howl also does not have any stipulation that those that make their save are immune to further instances. That means the Wendigo can simply howl again until they have howled 3 times.
That other stuff can get confusing. If your GM rules that a panicked character or other character forced to flee (like a turned undead) does so immediately, than they should also drop their items as per panicked. Some GMs rule the creature still has to wait for their turn to start fleeing. That's not so clear depending on the effect making the character run away.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: I would not allow a cowering character to delay. This is correct as well, but for clarification purposes, I will add that I believe this only applies to creatures forced to cower (in this instance, those who fail their save within 30 feet of the wendigo)
It seems like a creature that cowers for any other reason, such as by choice or being panicked and cornered (which causes them to cower if they can't flee), it seems that they can take actions. The rules say they are assumed to be using total defense, so there is a difference somewhat (their AC won't be quite as bad).
Conditions wrote: Cowering: The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class and loses his Dexterity bonus (if any). Conditions wrote: Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and f lee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to f lee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape. Not that this was applicable in this encounter, but just making a note of it. Although it's entirely possible that one of the entries is in error.
The Fear entry in the glossary says:
CRB, p. 563 wrote: Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing. There is no description of Cowering under Fear.
The Conditions in the glossary say:
CRB, p. 566 wrote: Cowering: The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class and loses his Dexterity bonus (if any). CRB, p. 568 wrote: Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path.
It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.
Reading all the above I don't think that the "cowers and does not attack" in the Panicked condition is the same thing as the Cowering condition. Sadly, Paizo isn't in the habit of capitalizing terms when they refer to a specific piece of the rules instead of being used as colloquial English.
Howl (Ex) Three times per day as a standard action, a wendigo can emit a forlorn howl that can be heard up to a mile away. Any who hear the howl must make a DC 28 Will save to avoid becoming shaken for an hour. Creatures within 120 feet become panicked for 1d4+4 rounds, and those within 30 feet cower with fear for 1d4 rounds. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
The description of Howl from the Wendigo states that those within 120 feet are panicked; but those within 30 feet cower in fear. That seems to be pretty clear it is imposing the cowering condition on those within 30 feet. Those characters are not panicked they are cowering. Since there are no other cowering condition in the rules that has to be what the howl does.
Generally when an ability specifically refers to cowering, it's referring to the worse condition from panicked. When the panicked condition itself refers to cowering when you have nowhere to panic-run away to besides deeper into danger, that isn't the condition cowering but just they sit in the corner.
However, and especially with regards to delaying out of your fear, Frightened, Panicked, and Cowering all take away control of your character to increasing degrees, you are allowed to decide how you run away when Frightened (e.g. fly, what direction, teleport, etc.) but must spend actions to do so and the GM can reasonably veto actions that do not accomplish this, you are not allowed to use abilities and must pick a random valid direction with what the GM determines to be the most sensible movement means (without using abilities) while Panicked, and are not allowed to even move at all while Cowering and must do absolutely nothing.
Actually, the panicked condition requires you to move and prevents you from attacking. If you are corned, you usually use the total defense action.
Cowering you cannot use any action including the total defense.
Frightened causes you to flee, if possible, but can attack if it cannot flee.
Pizza Lord and I were speaking of the "cowers and does not attack" when cornered part of Paniked (BTW, a Panicked person moves in a random direction away from the source of panic).
It is clear that the Wendigo Howl imposes the Cowering conditions to those within 30 feet.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply I was contradicting those points MS/DR, more that you can't be forced into cowering from the panicked condition because you can't move: its a separate substage of panicked to be sitting in spot Full Defensing.
And yes, Frightened and Panicked both require you run away, panicked you just don't get to control *how* you run away.
AwesomenessDog wrote: And yes, Frightened and Panicked both require you run away, panicked you just don't get to control *how* you run away. Technically this is correct (and I am only replying for clarification because I find it interesting) in that you have to flee 'away' from the source of the fear. It's otherwise along a random path and you also flee and avoid any other dangers, so technically if there's a choice or intersection, unless the target knows there's danger down one route (that can't be avoided), then it's basically a random choice and the target indeed has little control over it.
Otherwise a panicked character can choose 'how' they flee if they have multiple options. For instance if they have both a land and a fly speed of equivalent value (ie. one isn't clearly faster than the other), they could opt to either run or fly. If they have a dimension door or teleport spell or ability, then they can choose to use it to flee or get away from the source of fear.
If such an ability is the only logical or realistic choice or option then they are actually forced to use it. Some situations could also allow them to potentially request that they cast something like jump or expeditious retreat if it's clear their source of fear would be faster than them (and they didn't have allies staying behind to distract/be eaten by it while they run), or if it would be obvious that leaping a gap or over an obstacle would be an obvious choice for fleeing. As long as the player is clearly intending to follow the spirit of the fear and are not trying to delay or stall to allow an ally to cast a remove fear or something. It's also entirely fair for a GM to rule that they have to at least spend a move-action or two trying to move away or out of sight before casting it (depending on the specific situation, how close they'd be/were to the source, etc.)
For example, if a panicked creature was running away but found themselves at a large cliff or chasm with no other place to go (assume the Climb DC was obviously difficult and falling would be likely lethal or potentially so), they could opt to cower. If they had a spider climb, fly, dimension door, or teleport available they would be forced to use one of them, and they'd be able to choose between any of them if they had multiple options as long they were fleeing the source of their fear in a good-faith in-character way.
But otherwise, if we're strictly referring to 'running' as in 'beating feet' and physically fleeing, then it's pretty much as said.
Pizza Lord wrote: Otherwise a panicked character can choose 'how' they flee if they have multiple options. For instance if they have both a land and a fly speed of equivalent value (ie. one isn't clearly faster than the other), they could opt to either run or fly. If they have a dimension door or teleport spell or ability, then they can choose to use it to flee or get away from the source of fear.
If such an ability is the only logical or realistic choice or option then they are actually forced to use it. Some situations could also allow them to potentially request that they cast something like jump or expeditious retreat if it's clear their source of fear would be faster than them (and they didn't have allies staying behind to distract/be eaten by it while they run), or if it would be obvious that leaping a gap or over an obstacle would be an obvious choice for fleeing. As long as the player is clearly intending to follow the spirit of the fear and are not trying to delay or stall to allow an ally to cast a remove fear or something. It's also entirely fair for a GM to rule that they have to at least spend a move-action or two trying to move away or out of sight before casting it (depending on the specific situation, how close they'd be/were to the source, etc.)
Foror example, if a panicked creature was running away but found themselves at a large cliff or chasm with no other place to go (assume the Climb DC was obviously difficult and falling would be likely lethal or potentially so), they could opt to cower. If they had a spider climb, fly, dimension door, or teleport available they would be forced to use one of them, and they'd be able to choose between any of them if they had multiple options as long they were fleeing the source of their fear in a good-faith in-character way.
But otherwise, if we're strictly referring to 'running' as in 'beating feet' and physically fleeing, then it's pretty much as said.
I think you are still allowing too much control for the panicked person. Frightened says "flees as best it can" and Panicked says its a more severe state of Frightened and "must... flee at top speed... along a random path". You can argue that the player can decide what is the best means to flee while Frightened because they best know their character, but it still has to be fleeing; this is not the case for panicked, the player is not afforded control, it is random based on the valid options and thus is mostly dictated by the GM, not the player. Borrowing for real life definitions, Frightened just means afraid, Panicked means [in a state of fear such that] you aren't rationally thinking of what to do. It may be safer to teleport away, or maybe run across a bridge and cut the rope on the other side to prevent being chased, and you can do so while Frightened, but while Panicked, you wouldn't be able to think of doing that, and thus must do whatever your equivalent of blindly running away. This is why you can be cornered while Panicked if you say get boxed into a corner, where a Frightened person might be able to reasonably run slightly closer to the source of fear because they are slipping by to a better escape route on a mostly perpendicular path (I probably would veto say running between the things legs to get to the door opposite the fear source, however).
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