A different approach to a mythic hero


Exemplar Class Discussion


To be clear up front, I'm not opposed to the Exemplar's theming as it stands. I'm not concerned about them stealing the show from other characters or anything. Anything like that is a per-table issue. That's why it's rare. And whether you're enthused for something like that or not, I would remind GMs that just because forces of destiny are interested in a character does not mean the entire world - namely the NPCs on the ground - has to be. (that might be a worthwhile sidebar in the class's final version)

However, I think we can readjust the flavoring of this ever-so-slightly, open the origin up a bit, and maybe even get this into uncommon. And reconcile what I think is a contradiction between the concept of a "destined hero" in a world of "lost omens".

And I'm not saying this is the correct or best way to handle it, I'm just sharing my own ideas that are as valid as everyone else's and might address some of the knee-jerk criticism.

What I would suggest is that instead of being a mythic hero right away, the Exemplar draws power from myth. At least at first. Being your own mythic hero is a goal, not a starting point.

Not unlike how a bard - at a basic conceptual level - finds a muse and manifests their magic in song, as I picture it, an exemplar would first find inspiration in legends and story, and reflect them in their own deeds. Then, as their adventure progresses, they might realize that they are becoming a new hero all their own. Not only does this ground the character to (imo) the same "level" of fantasy as the other classes, it opens the possibility for more unique origins.

What I mean is that rather than:

Quote:
Eddie Exemplar was destined to do awesome stuff, so he went and did awesome stuff.

We have something like:

Quote:
Emma Exemplar lived a hard life under a tyrant's rule. When she knew she had to make a stand, she looked to the stories her father had raised her on, that those conquerors had tried to stamp out. She was not as strong or as cunning as them; no magic ran through her veins; when she prayed, no miracles occurred. And yet... courage swelled in her heart as she recounted those stories to herself. That courage was the first step in those tales, and so it would be in hers.

OR maybe, it might not even be something they control. Maybe this story exists independent of the people who tell it. Like a god draws power from worshipers, the idea of a mythic hero can be popular enough that it must manifest in an individual. Whether it is someone who tries to call upon it, someone "deemed worthy", or someone in the right place at the right time. I know that's a little heady, but I've always loved the idea of the collective unconscious. Ideas and concepts so powerful and universal that they exist without the individuals who know them.

Quote:

Enko Exemplar was supposed to be terrified. Didn't dragons do that to people? "Dragonfear"? Everyone else had run away, even the town guard for all their unearned bravado. Yet Enko stood still, not in stunned submission, but calmly awaiting a moment to strike back. Their trusty spear was not clutched in fear, not even held out to stab the monster if it approached. They were ready to throw it, there was a gap in its scales, minuscule yet clear as day. Something was calling to them, guiding them.

Enko was not a local, so they did not know about the city's hero and namesake, Sarganas. They would not have believed his stories anyway. He could hunt any game with his bare hands, face an army on his lonesome, and hold up a toppling tower. He had survived years in the abyss (or whatever we're calling it now) and dueled Gorum to a draw. His spear had pierced every fiend that threatened his people.
They say heroes live on in story. If so, Sarganas was very much alive right now. Every child, and everyone who had been a child here had his name on their mind as they hoped for a savior. And right now, this wandering outsider, standing tall, spear in hand, silhouetted against the flames, was his spitting image.

(Man, I gotta stop giving myself writing prompts at work, this took too long...)


The way I currently see it, the divine spark basically lets the exemplar gain power the same way a god does, through worship which they gain by building a legend and gaining titles.

At least that's how I interpret this side bar and class advancement being around gaining feats and titles.

"As you complete deeds and grow in power, so too will
your epithets. “Brave Nahoa” might become “Brave Nahoa,
Born of the Bones of the Earth,” before completing his
destiny as “Brave Nahoa, Born of the Bones of the Earth,
Teacher of Heroes.” If you are a GM and one of your PCs
is playing an exemplar, consider speaking with them to
see if there are later epithets they are interested in taking
for their character. If so, you might even place a challenge
or encounter in their way so they can “earn” their epithet
in-story—for example, Nahoa might find himself in an
encounter where he has to dig his way triumphantly from
a cave-in, or fight through a harrowing gauntlet of earth
elementals. This deed could set the stage for him to later
take “Born of the Bones of the Earth” when he reaches the
appropriate level!"


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Solarsyphon wrote:

The way I currently see it, the divine spark basically lets the exemplar gain power the same way a god does, through worship which they gain by building a legend and gaining titles.

At least that's how I interpret this side bar and class advancement being around gaining feats and titles.

"As you complete deeds and grow in power, so too will
your epithets. “Brave Nahoa” might become “Brave Nahoa,
Born of the Bones of the Earth,” before completing his
destiny as “Brave Nahoa, Born of the Bones of the Earth,
Teacher of Heroes.” If you are a GM and one of your PCs
is playing an exemplar, consider speaking with them to
see if there are later epithets they are interested in taking
for their character. If so, you might even place a challenge
or encounter in their way so they can “earn” their epithet
in-story—for example, Nahoa might find himself in an
encounter where he has to dig his way triumphantly from
a cave-in, or fight through a harrowing gauntlet of earth
elementals. This deed could set the stage for him to later
take “Born of the Bones of the Earth” when he reaches the
appropriate level!"

This analogy is similar to how I see it, but minor note that gods do not gain direct power from worship. A god with 0 worshippers has exactly as much power as they would at 100 million. How gods gain or lose power is irrespective of the number of worshippers they have.

That said, gods are still connected to their worshippers in other ways, and worshippers have been known to affect their god in ways (Nocticula as a prime example; her non-evil cult didn't make her change, but it did open her eyes to redemption, indirectly causing her shift).


Ah, I may have been crossing some streams with some D&D setting lore on the "worshipers = power" bit. My mistake.

It still works as an example for the parallel I'm trying to draw. Belief in legend (not in the literal events necessarily, but in the power and importance of the stories) is what kindles that "divine spark", whether it is the exemplar's own belief or other people's.

I guess it comes down to me wanting a little more cause-and-effect in an exemplar's origin. It's one thing for an oracle to awaken as a magical conduit, or for the magic gene lottery making you a sorcerer. The "divine spark" just feels a little too spontaneous and "Chosen One"-ish as currently presented.


Starcatcher wrote:

What I would suggest is that instead of being a mythic hero right away, the Exemplar draws power from myth. At least at first. Being your own mythic hero is a goal, not a starting point.

I would love the class way more of this was the case honestly, but the problem I see with that is that the class wouldn't really have a reason to have the Rare trait if there isn't any external sources that are actually helping you to get the power (because the whole reason an Exemplar is Rare is because they have a god's fragments within them).


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I could be wrong but I don't see why you couldn't play an Exemplar like this already. While the initial flavor text alludes to the events that led to their being this divine spark and thus the chance of Exemplars existing, the class is not required to be a chosen one. You could have sought out these divine fragments somehow. And if you aren't in Golarion you don't even have to worry about the plot reasons that lead to the divine sparks. When reading the class, what you described seems 100% in line with the type of stories that could be told.


If you are getting the power from "legends" you are literally just describing a Thaumaturge. So just make it an archetype of that class that changes how you use your implements. No need for all the "I am a god" nonsense.

All the class could be described as having done stuff like this, so its weird that the examplar is getting power from something nobody saw them do. But a barbarian is not getting power after they literally caused an earthquake because they were just that angry.


There's already background called Chosen One already, so you can do that with any class.

I doubt Exemplar flavor changes officially, as its the tie-in class to the new story beats in War of the Immortals, and that's the direction Paizo wants to support. Certainly something you can refluff at your table, as others have said.


I think that what's bugging me, what I think is needed, is a better story to the divine spark. Unlike a witch patron, sorcerer's bloodline, or certainly a cleric's deity, there's no real story to dig into with it, either a prompt for a player's backstory, or a hook for a GM.

I guess to that end - not really concerning myself with the gameplay aspect - I would give the spark itself a touch of customization. Choosing an origin would be appropriate. No idea what they would do gameplay-wise, but, god, I'm just flying off the handle creatively now so excuse me while I hurl these spitballs.

Quote:

Before you could control your spark, you discovered it in a time of need. Choose an origin that describes how.

The Will to Survive: You don't dwell on the origins of your spark. All you know is that one day, when you needed strength, resilience, and courage, you found them all in abundance and astounded yourself with your feats. Perhaps you generally remind others of bygone heroes of legend, but your story will be your own, through and through.

Answered the Call: Your loved ones, neighbors, maybe even just strangers nearby called for a hero, and when you decided to answer, the spark ignited and cast away any fear and doubt that would stop you. Your spark formed from the pleas of those who needed salvation, and it has remained since. Your powers carry an echo of their own ideas for heroism, perhaps drawing from specific legends they knew.

Heir to a Legacy: When a hero was needed, you thought of one in particular. You decided to become that hero, at least in that moment. You turn to their legends for inspiration, courage and guidance. You are still free to shape your own future, but might also see yourself as a reincarnation of that mythical figure.

Aspiring Legend: Your spark was not instantly born, but kindled over time, as you absorbed legends and myths past. Not content with hearing or reading the tales, you walked in the footsteps of the heroes of old. Visiting the sites of great deeds, facing the same trials, learning the same techniques. Whether you actually sought power, or were just following a passion, you discovered the spark and the power that came with it not long after. Since then, you have felt the call to become a legend yourself.


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You think there’s “no real story” in carrying a shard of a recently-killed god in your soul?

Tough crowd, I guess.

Liberty's Edge

keftiu wrote:

You think there’s “no real story” in carrying a shard of a recently-killed god in your soul?

Tough crowd, I guess.

The real story comes after. Including mechanically the Epithets.

You were a normal person with nothing special. You got hit with godstuff that gave you incredible powers. Game starts.

There is a reason the vast majority of comics with Peter Parker deal with what happens AFTER he got his powers.

Liberty's Edge

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Temperans wrote:

If you are getting the power from "legends" you are literally just describing a Thaumaturge. So just make it an archetype of that class that changes how you use your implements. No need for all the "I am a god" nonsense.

All the class could be described as having done stuff like this, so its weird that the examplar is getting power from something nobody saw them do. But a barbarian is not getting power after they literally caused an earthquake because they were just that angry.

The Thaumaturge is all about stories that deal with other creatures. That's how they get their power.

The Exemplar is all about the stories other creatures tell about them.

The Divine Spark is, in Golarion, what gives them the ability to translate this importance they get in other creatures' eyes into very real power.

I feel it is very similar to the RL concepts of mana or saga as far as I understand these.


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IMO the main problem that Exemplar has (besides main character syndrome) is that the class handweaves 90% of your background. While classes often are a recollection of tropes which kinda makes certain kinds of backgrounds more common in certain classes, in the case of the Exemplar itself you are always going to be someone with a god's fragment within you and that's IMO limiting. Not even the Sorcerer is as forced into a single origin as they have multiple power sources that could be empowering them and the reason why they have those powers in the first place also isn't as set on stone. You could be a descedant of X, got empowered by X because you spent a lot of time in a place which was full of X energies, or probably your powers were something that was infused into you through some weird ritual. Exemplar doesn't have this luxury and every single one of them is forced into the same origin story.


exequiel759 wrote:
IMO the main problem that Exemplar has (besides main character syndrome) is that the class handweaves 90% of your background. While classes often are a recollection of tropes which kinda makes certain kinds of backgrounds more common in certain classes, in the case of the Exemplar itself you are always going to be someone with a god's fragment within you and that's IMO limiting. Not even the Sorcerer is as forced into a single origin as they have multiple power sources that could be empowering them and the reason why they have those powers in the first place also isn't as set on stone. You could be a descedant of X, got empowered by X because you spent a lot of time in a place which was full of X energies, or probably your powers were something that was infused into you through some weird ritual. Exemplar doesn't have this luxury and every single one of them is forced into the same origin story.

The class could function allot of ways. They could lean into the story/ fame aspect or they could lean into the spark of power aspect and make it a fragment of power from any legendary creature.

Allot of legendary monsters are tied to divinity any way and killing a demonic dragon like Sigfried did resulted in a near identical ability to Achilles.

The legends theme is also baked in to the epithets system.

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