There are some effects in the game that specify a "creature that you can see" rather than a "creature that is observed by you."
https://2e.aonprd.com/Search.aspx?q=%22creature+that+you+can+see%22&typ e=eqs&display=list
Would a precise sense other than vision satisfy this requirement, or must you literally see the creature with your eyes?
Actually, now that I'm looking at Point Out, do you even need to precisely sense the creature? The Requirements for Point Out merely demand that the target isn't undetected, implying that only an imprecise sense is needed. Yet the description says that you are indicating "a creature that you can see." Is it possible to see a creature without precisely sensing them?
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In the case of Point Out specifically, in think the first bit is descriptive but not proscriptive. If you had another precise sense besides vision I would expect that you would be able to gesture in the direction and verbal describe the distance as the feat really seems to require.
I do agree the way the feat is written is a little funny. It does seem to imply you don't need to have the creature as observed, only not undetected. Which makes sense that maybe you vaguely know where it is because you saw it run into a bush. But then it mentions seeing a creature, and even if I'm being charitable to allow other senses, vision is precise sense so I would limit it to other precise senses. And seeing implies knowing precisely where it's at.
The feat problem should have said "If a creature is hidden or observed by you" rather than "that you can see".
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The typical use case of Point Out is when someone is Seeking an invisible creature. If they Succeed, they can then Point Out the creature to all their allies, thus saving them the actions to find them as well.
They use the words "see" because sight is typically a PC's only precise sense. A more accurate wording would be the Requirements as mentioned above.
Well even if you ignore vision as a requirement and opening to any precise see, see implies knowing exactly where someone is rather than someone only being hidden to you.
That's where the issue really lies in my opinion.
I might know an enemy is in a bush, because I saw them walk in. And I can see around the bush and haven't seen them walk out.
But I can't SEE (precisely sense) them while they're in the bush.
But I should be able to call out to my allies that "hey, they're in the bush".
I'm inclined to agree that Point Out is intended to work against hidden creatures. That is what the requirements section says, and the hidden condition means the user knows what square the target is in.
I'm still confused about what it means to "see" something, though. Line of sight only requires a precise sense and a clear path to the target. The blinded condition and darkness instead talk about seeing in terms of vision. If a creature can precisely sense me only with echolocation, can it still cast magic missile (which specifies that you must see the target) on me? Could I Point Out for this creature the location of someone undetected to it? I'm thinking no at least for the latter because Point Out is a visual effect.
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From another thread about senses, feels relevant :
I read it as meaning anything that specifies vision can be applied to any precise sense and anything that specifies hearing can be applied to any imprecise sense.”Pathfinder’s rules assume that a given creature has vision as its only precise sense and hearing as its only imprecise sense.” So vague sense at best :(
I doubt the designers were considering touch a sense at this point in writing the CRB and it’s certainly problematic in other areas to run it like this.
I'm inclined to agree that Point Out is intended to work against hidden creatures. That is what the requirements section says, and the hidden condition means the user knows what square the target is in.
I'm still confused about what it means to "see" something, though. Line of sight only requires a precise sense and a clear path to the target. The blinded condition and darkness instead talk about seeing in terms of vision. If a creature can precisely sense me only with echolocation, can it still cast magic missile (which specifies that you must see the target) on me? Could I Point Out for this creature the location of someone undetected to it? I'm thinking no at least for the latter because Point Out is a visual effect.
I think if you have precise echolocation then you could despite Point Out being "visual". Like I imagine precise echolocation to be like Daredevil. You could also have imprecise echolocation.
I think if you have precise echolocation then you could despite Point Out being "visual". Like I imagine precise echolocation to be like Daredevil. You could also have imprecise echolocation.I'm inclined to agree that Point Out is intended to work against hidden creatures. That is what the requirements section says, and the hidden condition means the user knows what square the target is in.
I'm still confused about what it means to "see" something, though. Line of sight only requires a precise sense and a clear path to the target. The blinded condition and darkness instead talk about seeing in terms of vision. If a creature can precisely sense me only with echolocation, can it still cast magic missile (which specifies that you must see the target) on me? Could I Point Out for this creature the location of someone undetected to it? I'm thinking no at least for the latter because Point Out is a visual effect.
And what if the creature was also blinded? Blinded explicitly renders the creature immune to visual effects, but the senses used to perceive me haven't actually changed if the creature was already in darkness.
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And what if the creature was also blinded? Blinded explicitly renders the creature immune to visual effects, but the senses used to perceive me haven't actually changed if the creature was already in darkness.I think if you have precise echolocation then you could despite Point Out being "visual". Like I imagine precise echolocation to be like Daredevil. You could also have imprecise echolocation.I'm inclined to agree that Point Out is intended to work against hidden creatures. That is what the requirements section says, and the hidden condition means the user knows what square the target is in.
I'm still confused about what it means to "see" something, though. Line of sight only requires a precise sense and a clear path to the target. The blinded condition and darkness instead talk about seeing in terms of vision. If a creature can precisely sense me only with echolocation, can it still cast magic missile (which specifies that you must see the target) on me? Could I Point Out for this creature the location of someone undetected to it? I'm thinking no at least for the latter because Point Out is a visual effect.
I want to make sure I understand what you're asking:
So the scenario is a blinded creature (with precise echolocation) being the recipient of a Point Out? To me that's fine. As long as you have a precise sense it should work IMO.
To me I equate vision to a precise sense.
I bring up the immunity to visual effects because Point Out is a visual effect, which blinded renders immunity to.
You can't see. All normal terrain is difficult terrain to you. You can't detect anything using vision. You automatically critically fail Perception checks that require you to be able to see, and if vision is your only precise sense, you take a –4 status penalty to Perception checks. You are immune to visual effects. Blinded overrides dazzled.
I suppose the "immune to visual effects" clause could be interpreted to only apply if vision is your only precise sense, much like the -4 penalty to Perception.
I seem to recall another discussion about spells like Hypnotic Pattern, where a player wanted to cast it on a blind creature with some non-vision precise sense.
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I think part of it is dependent on the the way a particular precise sense works.
I think Daredevil's hearing would let him figure out what direction you're pointing. But Daredevil wouldn't be affected by a swirling hypnotic pattern, because presumably it has no physical substance for Daredevil to detect.
However, I can imagine illusion spells being made to foil other precise senses. They're simply not common because most creature can see and rarely rely solely on some other precise sense.
This does make me wonder why we don't have rules for trying to close your eyes in reaction to purely visual effects.
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Per the CRB 4th printing errata: https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq
Many abilities use shorthand like “a creature you can see.” These abilities typically work just fine with other precise senses, so the Detecting with Other Senses sidebar was adjusted to note this. Examples include using a precise sense (like echolocation for precise hearing) for the Coerce activity of the Intimidation skill, an investigator’s Devise a Stratagem action, and the thaumaturge’s Exploit Vulnerability action.
Per the CRB 4th printing errata: https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq
Many abilities use shorthand like “a creature you can see.” These abilities typically work just fine with other precise senses, so the Detecting with Other Senses sidebar was adjusted to note this. Examples include using a precise sense (like echolocation for precise hearing) for the Coerce activity of the Intimidation skill, an investigator’s Devise a Stratagem action, and the thaumaturge’s Exploit Vulnerability action.
That answers the magic missile question! Echolocation as a precise sense would allow the creature to see me in the dark and cast the magic missile spell. Incidentally, spells that require targeting a creature at a given range require you to precisely sense the target anyway (unless the GM allows a flat check as though you were attacking a hidden creature). It's just that the magic missile description too requires the caster to see the target.
As for hypnotic pattern assailing a creature with echolocation (regardless of whether the creature is blinded or the pattern is in darkness), I suppose it wouldn't work if eyesight is the only way to perceive the pattern at all. Sound can't bounce off of a silent pattern of colors just hanging there in the air.
As for Point Out, that should be able to benefit a blinded creature with echolocation, despite blinded normally causing immunity to visual effects. Sound can bounce off of an outstretched arm, after all.