And the Phytokineticist says "TIMBER!!!"


Advice


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How might you rule (or recommend ruling) a phytokineticist attempting to "Suppress" sections of the base of a tall tree with Base Kinesis in order to make it fall down? Assume possible goals of the action are to crush opponents, bridge a chasm, ramp over a wall, create some cover or a wall, or smash down a structure.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would likely say that the Tree is one object, and can't have a portion suppressed. There are plenty of other ways to knock down a tree.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Would you also prohibit someone using base kinesis to move water out of the ocean (one really big object)?

Or to move a bucket's worth of sand (tens of thousands of objects)?

Why would the tree be any different?

Nay I say! I interpret it as manipulating X amount at a time. Not targeting objects of X amount. Otherwise, it becomes so limiting as to not matter at all.

How would you even begin to measure air or gas under the interpretation that the initial target has to be X bulk?

I'm thinking WORST case scenario, the phytokineticist can drop the tree, but it takes as long as it would someone with a hatchet or axe.

Sovereign Court

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I also wouldn't allow this. Base Kinesis has precise bulk limits, so trying to affect a larger whole by trying to target a thin slice doesn't seem to be RAI.

I think it's pretty different compared to trying to suppress some sand or some water. The sand and water are easily separated from the whole, the part of the tree is connected to the whole tree.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

A bucket of sand is a finite object. A cup of water. Yes, it is made up of smaller parts -- but then again so is the tree. Pathfinder is not designed for us to get into the cellular level. The pedantic answer for measuring gas would be to do a volumetric analysis, understanding partial pressures. This would require some assumptions that Golarion's atmosphere is similar to Earth's.

If it was a sapling, yes, I would say that it probably could be done within the bulk limitations. Just not a tree large enough for a bridge (unless it was a bridge for ants).

Using base kinesis to weed a garden, where the phytokineticist looks at a weed and says "No" and it goes away, would be reasonable.


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As the others have mentioned, I don't think that it is allowed by RAW.

But I don't recommend always running the game by RAW either. If it is being done to narratively describe something that the character is allowed to do, or that would be cool and fun and good for the plot of the game, sure.

For example, crossing a chasm. Some characters glide or fly across. Some do super jumping. Some manipulate nearby trees to make a bridge.


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This seems like the only intended purpose of Supressing Wood, I would say. There's no use case for deleting saplings, and man-made wooden objects aren't valid targets for base kinesis, so magical lumberjacking is all that remains.

Since the bulk limits are kind of tight, and wood is pretty heavy, I'd put the "rate of timber" to about that of a chainsaw at level 1 where you're only deleting an L of bulk per activation. After hitting 1 Bulk, that's probably enough to down a large tree in a specific direction.

I would use "Falling Objects" rules for offensive purposes, which means that unfortunately it'll just not be viable after level 1, but considering the sheer amount of options available to a magic instantaneous lumberjack/carpenter/treemaker, i think they'll manage. For bridging gaps, destroying structures, this seems like a powerful but reasonable use of the ability.


I wouldn't allow a chuck of the tree to shrink but I would allow "growth reversal" to some of the smaller branches. And I would expand "wood" to "plant."

So for an example, you can shrink the twigs off a branch to give you a better foothold, but not the whole branch.
Or, you can shrink natural thorn vines to clear a path. (Probably 5ft square at a time or just as an exploration ability)

When it comes to "man-made" items. It seems kinda odd. Expand kenecis doesn't seem to have such a condition. (Unless it's auto transferred) so theoretically you could expand a door to the point it pops out of place or bow the door (with sculpt).
Anyway, I do see why they would put such a restriction. Wood would be to powerful of an ability. Open any door with no checks. Shrink wooden weapons, like spears. Remove planks of a ship to sink it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dragonhearthx wrote:

I

When it comes to "man-made" items. It seems kinda odd. Expand kenecis doesn't seem to have such a condition. (Unless it's auto transferred)

It is. Expanded kinesis adds new options but nothing removes the limitations set by the base action across all options.


Captain Morgan wrote:
It is. Expanded kinesis adds new options but nothing removes the limitations set by the base action across all options.

makes sense. But I do wonder to what extent is man-made? Are sculpted shrubs man-made? Trimmed hedges? What about a staff that was just a branch straightened by heat?


Dragonhearthx wrote:
But I do wonder to what extent is man-made?

Ultimately that is left up to the players - especially the GM - to decide. Based on the needs of the plot and the rule of cool.

For general balance and guidelines, I would say that anything that is part of an item is off-limits. You can't destroy a weapon just because it has a wooden handle. Or a Druid's staff arguing that it is made from a natural and unworked tree branch. Doors and walls are a gray area. It could be cool to use Wood or Metal Kinesis to bypass locked, trapped, or stuck doors - but it could also be cheese that negates all of the planning and encounter design that the GM put into the challenge.


I know it would not make any sense, but maybe a metal or wood keneticist can "see" that a door or item is trapped, locked, or stuck at a lower DC if they touch it. It would be part of the base kenisis options. A secret perception check.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragonhearthx wrote:
I know it would not make any sense, but maybe a metal or wood kineticist can "see" that a door or item is trapped, locked, or stuck at a lower DC if they touch it. It would be part of the base kinesis options. A secret perception check.

I would certainly accept it being described as such, but the character in question would still be using the traditional "earch for Traps" mechanics.


Ravingdork wrote:
Dragonhearthx wrote:
I know it would not make any sense, but maybe a metal or wood kineticist can "see" that a door or item is trapped, locked, or stuck at a lower DC if they touch it. It would be part of the base kinesis options. A secret perception check.
I would certainly accept it being described as such, but the character in question would still be using the traditional "Search for Traps" mechanics.

and lower the DC by 5? (Thanks, I forgot the name)

But this is homebrew stuff at this point. So let's move back to the original topic.

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