Encounter Balance: The Math and the Monsters


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magnuskn wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:


Sounds like being a player in a few PFS games could help you gather a better understanding of which rules are usually most relevant during encounters.
Probably. I'll look into that if there are PFS games in Hamburg.

It seems there are (if it is the right Hamburg :) ) https://warhorn.net/events/nordlicht-pfs


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Errenor wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:


Sounds like being a player in a few PFS games could help you gather a better understanding of which rules are usually most relevant during encounters.
Probably. I'll look into that if there are PFS games in Hamburg.
It seems there are (if it is the right Hamburg :) ) https://warhorn.net/events/nordlicht-pfs

Yep. Already signed up for a new player demo in two weeks. ^^

Liberty's Edge

Online play can be useful too.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Online play can be useful too.

I only got so much time and already am in two groups for PF1E (Tuesday and Friday evenings each week, the latter actually two different games which alternate each week). And RPG's are not my only interest in this world. Not to mention that pesky full-time job...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Another way parties can punch way above their weight in encounters or through a long wave encounter is by using consumable consumables to buck the conventions of requiring 10 minute rests between encounters. When multiple encounters can be pushed into one 13 to 15 round encounter instead of 4 or 5 three to four round encounters, spells with durations are much more powerful.

Tonight I was GMing for a level 2 party of three (Spirit instinct Barbarian, war priest cleric and mastermind rogue) through 276xp worth of encounters (unmodified for the smaller party size, because the party has a level 1 NPC friend). The encounters that collapsed together were 1 level 3 creature, 3 level 2 creatures, 4 level 0 simple traps, and a 4th level caster. The combat went 13 total rounds and involved a lot of cat and mouse hiding, seeking, disabling traps, and running around trough a maze of a dungeon. It was a harrowing fight. Between the 3 PCs and their level 1 NPC companion, there was 3 ho left at the end, with the companion stabilized at dying 3 by spell, and the Barbarian succeeding a dying three death save in round 12 with no hero points left. The party consumed 5 elixirs/potions, 3 heal spells, 2 magic weapon spells that ran all the way out and a bless spell which got countered by a bane spell in round 7. The enemies could sneak attack, so keeping from getting flanked with no attacks of opportunity took a lot of work, and was only marginally successful, everyone went down at least once to a critical hit. Luckily the succeeded on all their saves vs the caster or else it might have only been a 5 or 6 round encounter. Having magic weapon as a scroll really helped too.

Had the party been stingy with the consumables, the would have needed to flee after encountering the level 3 creature alone for 3 rounds before 1 of the level 2 creatures found them and ran to raise the alarm and lure the party into the trap room between them and the caster boss. That would have been ok too, but a lot less memorable an encounter. Magic weapon at level 2 is still a fun spell, but not when you maybe hit once or twice with it before the encounter is over. Likewise, Bless is actually a good spell when you cast it first in a buffing round and then can expand it while casting other buff spells for a couple rounds. The fight ended up eventually in a room with 3 at level minions and a level +2 caster who had already buffed mirror image, starting around turn 7 after buffing and fighting the level 3 creature only to get led into a trap field. 2 characters having battle medicine as also pretty important.

Long story short, dynamic “impossible” encounters are still possible and very fun to run and play through in PF2. My players won’t soon forget this fight.


The thread Michael Sayre on Casters, Balance and Wizards, from Twitter drifted from the topic of Remastered wizards to the topic of the adventuring day. This relates to the pre-2nd-Edition problem of the 15-minute adventuring day when the party would quit for the day when their spellcasters used up all their highest-level spell slots. This reminded me that while this thread here had talked about the design of individual encounters and about consecutive encounters, we had only a few comments about how to string encounters together into an entire adventuring day.

In Comment #114 design manager Michael Sayre explained:

Michael Sayre wrote:
pi4t wrote:
Can I politely suggest putting that information in the revised rulebooks somewhere? It's about half the number of encounters per day recommended in 5e or PF1, and I think groups coming from those systems try to run the number of encounters per day they're used to and end up finding spellcasters aren't able to contribute properly.

That's a broad generalization of the guidelines that are already in the rulebook.

Quote:

Moderate-threat encounters are a serious challenge to the characters, though unlikely to overpower them completely. Characters usually need to use sound tactics and manage their resources wisely to come out of a moderate-threat encounter ready to continue on and face a harder challenge without resting.

Severe-threat encounters are the hardest encounters most groups of characters can consistently defeat. These encounters are most appropriate for important moments in your story, such as confronting a final boss. Bad luck, poor tactics, or a lack of resources due to prior encounters can easily turn a severe-threat encounter against the characters, and a wise group keeps the option to disengage open.

Extreme-threat encounters are so dangerous that they are likely to be an even match for the characters, particularly if the characters are low on resources. This makes them too challenging for most uses. An extreme-threat encounter might be appropriate for a fully rested group of characters that can go all-out, for the climactic encounter at the end of an entire campaign, or for a group of veteran players using advanced tactics and teamwork.

Generally that means that your party should be loaded with enough "ammunition" to successfully tackle 3 Moderate encounters. Low and Trivial encounters don't really require any resource expenditure.

There's a lot of possible permutations to the formula and no "one true way" to assemble encounters, which is why we avoid simplifying things to that degree in the rulebook. You can stretch or compress that number based on the type and severity of the encounters that you put in your adventure.

Earlier he had explained that most spellcasters had three spell slots per level so that they could cast one highest-level spell per Moderate encounter. I presume that means that at odd levels where they have only two spell slots at their highest spell level, they can afford to underperform by casting their second-highest spell slots.


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I had mentioned back in comment #2 of this thread that a run of Low-Threat and Moderate-Threat encounters means giving the party opportunities for a 10-minute break so that they can Treat Wounds and Refocus. But sometimes the party needs more of a break: they need a hot meal, a good night's sleep, and fresh daily preparations in the morning before they can tackle the rest of the dungeon.

I ran into that problem in Prisoners of the Blight, the 5th module of Ironfang Invasion. While they were on the surface of the Blighted Area of the Fangwood Forest, they could find hiding places to spend the night. But when they entered Queen Arlantia's underground palace, every corner was inhabited by enemies. Section G, Upper Reaches, had 12 rooms with about 9 encounters. Section H, Deeper Reaches, had 5 rooms all with encounters that were rated CR 16, CR 15, CR 14, CR 13 or 15, and CR 17. For the intended 15th-level party CR 13 to 15 would be Trivial Threat, CR 16 would be Low Threat, and CR 17 would be Moderate Threat. Section I, Arhlantu, Seat of the Darkblight, was the final boss battle, CR 19 which in PF2 would be Extreme Threat. The party had run a gauntlet of Trivial, Low, and Moderate Threat encounters and then had to face an Extreme Threat. And anything less than a More-Than-Severe Threat would be disappointing.

I suppose the module writer assumed that party would bed down for the night in the last room of the Deeper Reaches before continuing on to face Queen Arlantia herself in her Arhlantu lair. My players did not do that. They rushed over to the secret passage to the Arhlantu lair.

So I cheated.

Actually, I had planned my cheat long before. Prisoners of the Blight is about rescuing the goddess Gendowyn, Lady of Fangwood, from captivity. The party rescues Gendowyn at the end of the module. They could visit with her for a few days in the Continuing the Adventure section, but I knew my players. They would immediately rush back to fighting the Ironfang Legion, "Goodbye Gendowyn, nice to meet you but we have no time to talk." To give them time to talk, I replaced the passage to Arhlantu, which as partially a dimensional extension of Cyth-V'Sug's planar home Jeharlu, with a dimensional portal to Arhlantu. And Queen Arlantu had flipped a switch that reset the portal to the pocket dimension where she had trapped Gendowyn. Easy peasy, the party was imprisoned forever, too, Arlantia thought.

Of course, the party escaped and brought a few of Gendowyn's minions along to aid their battle against Queen Arlantia and her minions, but they also took the time to get a good night's sleep first and restock their spells and other daily resources.

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