Bless vs Bane

[Lost Ohioian]

Bless counters bane and the reverse it true. Does this mean that when an enemies bane spell emanation touches the player bless spell emanation that both stop functioning or does this begin the counteracting rolls? If it’s the latter then who rolls the D20 and who uses their DC?

[Farien]

It works the same way that the Light cantrip can counteract Darkness.

Meaning that I have no idea.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

A counteract roll occurs. And it is always the person initiating the action (pf2e avoids contested rolls for afaik everything other than initiative).

Crb 305, 458... and heck 633 for the light trait.

[shroudb]

the one initiating the check is the one rolling in pf2.

as an example, when you try to hide from someone, you will roll your stealth vs their perception DC, while when they try to see you they will roll their perception vs your stealth dc.

similarly for counteracts, when you enter the area of a bane with a bless, or when you cast bless while in bane, you will be rolling for the counteract. if you cast bane when there is a bless effect around though then you will be rolling the counteract check.

and etc.

[Lost Ohioian]

So if the Bless enters the Bane area. The Bless is the one rolling the dice against the Banes DC. Now let’s say that the Bless doesn’t meet or exceed the DC. Does this mean the Bless drops (is counteracted) or that mean that the Bane caster can attempt the roll against the Bless DC on their turn?

This example means that both the bane and bless are active before the emanations interact.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Lost Ohioian wrote:

So if the Bless enters the Bane area. The Bless is the one rolling the dice against the Banes DC. Now let’s say that the Bless doesn’t meet or exceed the DC. Does this mean the Bless drops (is counteracted) or that mean that the Bane caster can attempt the roll against the Bless DC on their turn?

This example means that both the bane and bless are active before the emanations interact.

Remember counteract thresholds are also to do with the level differences between effects, not just the roll.

RAW it means bless stays up and bane rolls against it the next time it comes up.

RAI "Counteract checks compare the power of two forces and determine which defeats the other." could suggest otherwise, but it is flavour text and the rules text doesn't support this.

[shroudb]

I disagree with the above.

PF2 is written with common language in mind.

when the action says that one defeats the other imo it means that the one losing the check (be it the one initiating or the one defending) is indeed defeated. It doesn't stay up.

There's no distinction between flavour and rules text in this context imo, the whole paragraph describes what's happening, with the first sentence setting the effect and the second paragraph setting the numbers you will be using.

[Errenor]

shroudb wrote:

when the action says that one defeats the other imo it means that the one losing the check (be it the one initiating or the one defending) is indeed defeated. It doesn't stay up.

There's no distinction between flavour and rules text in this context imo, the whole paragraph describes what's happening, with the first sentence setting the effect and the second paragraph setting the numbers you will be using.

Nowhere in the game there's anything that assumes that initiating effect vanishes (unless it's momentary and it's the only thing it does of course).

Failure Counteract the target if its counteract level is lower than your effect’s counteract level.
Critical Failure You fail to counteract the target.

[shroudb]

Errenor wrote:

shroudb wrote:

when the action says that one defeats the other imo it means that the one losing the check (be it the one initiating or the one defending) is indeed defeated. It doesn't stay up.

There's no distinction between flavour and rules text in this context imo, the whole paragraph describes what's happening, with the first sentence setting the effect and the second paragraph setting the numbers you will be using.

Nowhere in the game there's anything that assumes that initiating effect vanishes (unless it's momentary and it's the only thing it does of course).

Failure Counteract the target if its counteract level is lower than your effect’s counteract level.
Critical Failure You fail to counteract the target.

Quote:

Counteract checks compare the power of two forces and determine which defeats the other

It doesn't say "and if you counteract it". It specifically says "which defeats the other".

The chart you listed is used to see if the initiator counteracted or not. If not, then the effect they used is defeated.

[Errenor]

shroudb wrote:

Quote:

Counteract checks compare the power of two forces and determine which defeats the other

It doesn't say "and if you counteract it". It specifically says "which defeats the other".

The chart you listed is used to see if the initiator counteracted or not. If not, then the effect they used is defeated.

Quoting flavour text is meaningless. Check's results is the only thing which determines mechanical consequences (and 'mechanical' text in the particular ability which uses Counteract rules). If F/CF results don't say 'acting effect ends', then it doesn't end.