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Easy to miss across all of the excitement, but this point felt like it was worthy of a whole thread! What used to be Aasimar, Tieflings, and the like are now Lineages of a common Versatile Heritage, one that WotC can't sue them over. It's a change that doesn't mean a whole lot (the average table is still calling a devilspawn adventurer a Tiefling, I bet), but keeps them safe and cuts back on mechanically-redundant options.
Huh. Well, that'll shorten the versatile heritage list on Nethys, at least. That's cool.
Are they doing the same about the elemental types?
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Huh. Well, that'll shorten the versatile heritage list on Nethys, at least. That's cool.
Are they doing the same about the elemental types?
They've said that Rage of Elements is the first Remaster-style book to release, so that's a good point! I don't know if we'll get one lump Geniekin or not.
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I am really hoping this means we get more Ganzi and Aphorite related things rather than less and/or more generic things.
Ganzi and Aphorites (especially Ganzi) are my favorite Pathfinder specific things, and they feel very different than Aasimar and Tieflings. Ganzi especially has felt very underdeveloped in PF2e, so I really hope this allows for more frequent feats for them, rather than less.
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Mechanically, is this going to work like "when you choose the Nephilim versatile heritage, you then choose a lineage and also a first level ancestry feat."
Since currently you can choose to be a Human with the versatile heritage Tiefling whose first level ancestry feat is "Fiendish Eyes" rather than a lineage feat.
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Wait, how is that going to work considering Aasimar & Tieflings already have a number of lineage feats underneath them?
I don't think it's going to change anything at all. If you're, say, a plumekith aasimar now, under Remastered rules you'd be a plumekith nephilim.
That stands to reason... pick your divine lineage by which immortal superfamily you belong to, with celestials and fiends all under the same umbrella.
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I wonder if it would have enough flexibility to represent someone connected to lets say both angelic and demonic planes/energy.ancestors.
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I don't think it's going to change anything at all. If you're, say, a plumekith aasimar now, under Remastered rules you'd be a plumekith nephilim.That stands to reason... pick your divine lineage by which immortal superfamily you belong to, with celestials and fiends all under the same umbrella.
Notably, they suggested that the way they did Nephilim upped customizability-- the way they phrased it sounded an awful lot like you can even play coy and say your character has both angel blood and demon blood. They also mentioned we'd see the familiar lineages, so my guess is that they'll just have the existing lineages as lineage options for Nephilim (which will probably give the vision benefit?) and you choose one to define what you are, or pick something more generic to not define it as closely.
Guntermech:
Exceptionally unlikely, as the word is in public domain.
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The word "Nephilim" is literally in Genesis 6:4.
There are things that litigious companies will sue you over, but "you are also referencing the Bible" is probably not one of them.
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Not crazy about the name. Paizo changed phylactery because of it's ties to real life religion, then use Nephilim.
Like most things, context is important here. In Judaism a phylactery is a small box which contains holy scriptures. So using the same word for "the box that contains the essence of one of the most evil things in existence" is probably a bad choice.
Using "Nephillim" in place of "Aasimar/Tiefling/etc." is actually using the original word in its same context. Like the Book of Enoch (a Hebrew text that did not make it into the Christian Bible) describes the Nephillim with "And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children." (1 Enoch 7:2-3) which is pretty much exactly how Pathfinder is going to use the term (just with more kinds of things than Angels.)
Design Manager
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Planar Scion sounds better and covers more of the possible parental choices.
Planar scions are still the top bucket. Think of it this way-
Planar scion > geniekin > undine
Planar scion > nephilim > musetouched
The nephilim bucket isn't set up in quite the same way as geniekin is since undine is a VH instead of a lineage, but the end result is that everything that was true of your character in the game world before can still be true, plus there's a bunch of new characters possible that weren't possible previously.
Planar Scion sounds better and covers more of the possible parental choices.Planar scions are still the top bucket. Think of it this way-
Planar scion > geniekin > undine
Planar scion > nephilim > musetouched
The nephilim bucket isn't set up in quite the same way as geniekin is since undine is a VH instead of a lineage, but the end result is that everything that was true of your character in the game world before can still be true, plus there's a bunch of new characters possible that weren't possible previously.
Very cool, I wonder if that's also Aphorite/Ganzi as well as Tiefling/Aasimar
Very cool, I wonder if that's also Aphorite/Ganzi as well as Tiefling/Aasimar
Planar Scion sounds better and covers more of the possible parental choices.Planar scions are still the top bucket. Think of it this way-
Planar scion > geniekin > undine
Planar scion > nephilim > musetouched
The nephilim bucket isn't set up in quite the same way as geniekin is since undine is a VH instead of a lineage, but the end result is that everything that was true of your character in the game world before can still be true, plus there's a bunch of new characters possible that weren't possible previously.
Aphorite and ganzi don't have the same legal issues, so they might also exist alongside nephelim, regardless of whether those alignments are covered by nephelim.
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Planar Scion sounds better and covers more of the possible parental choices.Planar scions are still the top bucket. Think of it this way-
Planar scion > geniekin > undine
Planar scion > nephilim > musetouched
The nephilim bucket isn't set up in quite the same way as geniekin is since undine is a VH instead of a lineage, but the end result is that everything that was true of your character in the game world before can still be true, plus there's a bunch of new characters possible that weren't possible previously.
Insert iDubbz meme gif “Hey, that’s pretty good.”
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I wonder if something is meant to improve the non versatile heritages that are weak (mechanically) compared to the versatile heritages. Especially if versatile heritages become more versatile and more "core" than they were. I really don't like when everyone is an Aasimar/Tiefling/Geniekin/Spaghettimonsterkin, it removes all the special of these heritages.
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Planar scions are still the top bucket. Think of it this way-
Planar scion > geniekin > undine
Planar scion > nephilim > musetouched
The nephilim bucket isn't set up in quite the same way as geniekin is since undine is a VH instead of a lineage, but the end result is that everything that was true of your character in the game world before can still be true, plus there's a bunch of new characters possible that weren't possible previously.
Will there still be an in-universe group name for Aasimar or Tieflings (obviously not those exactly, but an equivalent)? Or has the distinction between the two been brushed away? I always liked that Tieflings for example had a sort of commonality together, and it'd make me sad to think that a hellspawn would in universe be no closer linked to a demonic tiefling than to a musetouched.
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Probably wanted to avoid the idea of it being seen as anti-Semitic and Nephilim doesn't carry possible anti-Semitic connotations. I will say I feel Reliquary would've been a better term to use than Soul CageNot crazy about the name. Paizo changed phylactery because of it's ties to real life religion, then use Nephilim.
Planar Scion sounds better and covers more of the possible parental choices. Outsider? Plane touched?
Nephilim carries uh, really bad connotations as well based on that article from above
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Nephilim carries uh, really bad connotations as well based on that article from aboveProbably wanted to avoid the idea of it being seen as anti-Semitic and Nephilim doesn't carry possible anti-Semitic connotations. I will say I feel Reliquary would've been a better term to use than Soul CageNot crazy about the name. Paizo changed phylactery because of it's ties to real life religion, then use Nephilim.
Planar Scion sounds better and covers more of the possible parental choices. Outsider? Plane touched?
I see three explanations in that article, none of which I would describe as 'really bad' connotations when the other concept on the field is just plain antisemitism.
Fantasy necessarily defines what it means by using its terms. Sometimes it takes a real thing and defines it in a way which would be incredibly offensive (like mistaking phylactery for a generic amulet and making it the focus of one of the most evil monsters in the game) and sometimes it's just picking which of a dozen interpretations of "hobgoblin" is 'true' for the world.
Nephilim being interpreted as a dozen different things does not stand up against 'we gave an unholy monster trappings of a real-world persecuted religion' (initially by mistake, but time marched on).
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I see three explanations in that article, none of which I would describe as 'really bad' connotations when the other concept on the field is just plain antisemitism.Nephilim carries uh, really bad connotations as well based on that article from aboveProbably wanted to avoid the idea of it being seen as anti-Semitic and Nephilim doesn't carry possible anti-Semitic connotations. I will say I feel Reliquary would've been a better term to use than Soul CageNot crazy about the name. Paizo changed phylactery because of it's ties to real life religion, then use Nephilim.
Planar Scion sounds better and covers more of the possible parental choices. Outsider? Plane touched?
I was looking at this part
"Based on a more literal translation of benei elokim, many explain that the term is simply referring to princes, noblemen or judges who abused their power, raping anyone they fancied, and forcing any women who got married to have relations with them first. This, together with their many other sins, were what eventually led to the great flood."
Like I think it warrants at least fact check to see how word is currently taught in Judaism before committing to it. I have no context of how common the various interpretations are
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I was looking at this part
"Based on a more literal translation of benei elokim, many explain that the term is simply referring to princes, noblemen or judges who abused their power, raping anyone they fancied, and forcing any women who got married to have relations with them first. This, together with their many other sins, were what eventually led to the great flood."
Like I think it warrants at least fact check to see how word is currently taught in Judaism before committing to it. I have no context of how common the various interpretations are
Fundamentally, offering a degree of redemption to a foul word or concept is a lot less problematic than tainting or outright befouling a sacred word or concept.
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Not crazy about the name. Paizo changed phylactery because of it's ties to real life religion, then use Nephilim.Like most things, context is important here. In Judaism a phylactery is a small box which contains holy scriptures. So using the same word for "the box that contains the essence of one of the most evil things in existence" is probably a bad choice.
Using "Nephillim" in place of "Aasimar/Tiefling/etc." is actually using the original word in its same context. Like the Book of Enoch (a Hebrew text that did not make it into the Christian Bible) describes the Nephillim with "And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children." (1 Enoch 7:2-3) which is pretty much exactly how Pathfinder is going to use the term (just with more kinds of things than Angels.)
I thought that the Book of Enoch was also apocryphal in the Hebrew Scriptures. And that response might depend on the date of the canon that you are examining.
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Like I think it warrants at least fact check to see how word is currently taught in Judaism before committing to it.
That would be precisely why we consulted a Jewish sensitivity specialist before choosing the name, yes, and didn't lock it in until they'd confirmed that they didn't see anything problematic with using the name in this context.
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That would be precisely why we consulted a Jewish sensitivity specialist before choosing the name, yes, and didn't lock it in until they'd confirmed that they didn't see anything problematic with using the name in this context.
Like I think it warrants at least fact check to see how word is currently taught in Judaism before committing to it.
Ya, great to hear :D (I hope I wasn't too rude on checking up on this)
IIRC, there are some proponents of Sasquatch who posit that they are the true descendants of the Nephilim.
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IIRC, there are some proponents of Sasquatch who posit that they are the true descendants of the Nephilim.
I heard a guest on Art Bell once who claimed that the reason that Chebacca looks like a Bigfoot was because Bigfoots are Angels and Chewbacca was from space. I think about that a lot.
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That would be precisely why we consulted a Jewish sensitivity specialist before choosing the name, yes, and didn't lock it in until they'd confirmed that they didn't see anything problematic with using the name in this context.
Like I think it warrants at least fact check to see how word is currently taught in Judaism before committing to it.
I am surprised that it is just a Jewish sensitivity specialist that you think you need to consult. It could have much broader implications for the diverse religious groups that use that book.
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Useful clarifications from today’s streams and the event Discord: Aasimar and Tieflings are both rolled into Nephilim, but also with the option to have a mix of both, Axiomites and Ganzi are also Nephilim but not coming in the initial writeup.
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And it Geniekin are confirmed to be their own separate thing- which makes sense with new Geniekin coming in Rage of Elements!
Thank you for keeping us up to date?
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I'm very excited! I'm trusting that the ganzi's unique ability will be preserved. Maybe we'll even get a fix for the "every Versatile Heritage gives low-light vision/darkvision" problem that has plagued every kobold, goblin and dwarf character since Day One. I want to play a tiefling kobold already!
I'm very excited! I'm trusting that the ganzi's unique ability will be preserved. Maybe we'll even get a fix for the "every Versatile Heritage gives low-light vision/darkvision" problem that has plagued every kobold, goblin and dwarf character since Day One. I want to play a tiefling kobold already!
I just sucked it up and ate the useless heritage. It's too cool of a concept to pass up! (I do hope they fix that, though.)