Ouestion as above.
This came up at my table with our druid. She frequently uses her downtime to go looking for herbs and stuff according the rules from ultimate wilderness. She recently came across the spell Full Pouch and asked me if the herbal items she makes would fulfill the criteria of beeing alchemical consumables.
I said I'd look into it, after doing some research, so here I am.
Her point is, that the herbs she collect must be prepared using the craft(alchemy) skill.
I'd looked through the ultimate wilderness book, to check if herbs are anywhere mentioned as alchemical consumables but couldn't find a thing (unless i overlooked something).
As I see it fitting, of being a druid who uses druid spells to get more use of herbs she gathered and alchemically prepared, i just wanted to check in with you guys if there are any rules RAW, that would allow, deny or otherwise touch that subject that I might be missing.
Toshy wrote: Ouestion as above.
This came up at my table with our druid. She frequently uses her downtime to go looking for herbs and stuff according the rules from ultimate wilderness. She recently came across the spell Full Pouch and asked me if the herbal items she makes would fulfill the criteria of beeing alchemical consumables. ...
so there are a couple of topics around this
Pro (hebalist) skill
Ult Wild Herbalism
Drudic Herbology which a druid chooses instead of an Anml Cmpn.
as for the spell Full Pouch:T2, there are RAW lists of Alchemical items (reagents, remedies, tools, weapons) as suitable spell targets. She can substitute value of the herbs as material components meeting the gp requirements of the spell. The spell will then create a duplicate of the item touched. note: as a spell it is 'worth' 60gp (or 10*2*CL) as an NPC casting so GMs are likely to set this as a rough limit on what it can reproduce.
Quote: The item divides itself into two nearly identical copies and the newly separated one is delivered into your hand. The new item functions as the original in all ways except the copied item suffers a slight reduction in quality. Saves against the new alchemical item’s affects use the original item’s save DC or the save DC of this spell, whichever is higher. Personally, I feel that there is a contradiction in that paragraph. Using the higher DC is an increase in quality.
I would use the lower DC between the original item and the spell DC.
RAW I think that the herbal items don't count as alchemical consumables (unless those that explicitly say so), RAI it seems appropriate to count them as such.
Azothath wrote: ... as for the spell Full Pouch:T2, there are RAW lists of Alchemical items (reagents, remedies, tools, weapons) as suitable spell targets. She can substitute value of the herbs as material components meeting the gp requirements of the spell. The spell will then create a duplicate of the item touched. note: as a spell it is 'worth' 60gp (or 10*2*CL) as an NPC casting so GMs are likely to set this as a rough limit on what it can reproduce. If she can create the effect of a valid targetable Alchemical Item via herbs as a defined object/packet (not just "I could do this with these generic herbs" but "I make a tincture using these that do this"), then that object/packet is an acceptable spell target. Don't get too hung up on the packaging or form if you think it is acceptable as a GM.
examples are Antitoxin snuff for Oil of Taggit, mustard Antiplague forehead plaster, Curative Myrrh as a herbal inscence, Insight Leaves (is an herbal tea), etc
just remember that the spell has limits, "... not a dose of disease, a poison, a magic potion, or another type of consumable item." This puts Cure Light Wounds potion out of reach.
Azothath wrote wrote: If she can create the effect of a valid targetable Alchemical Item via herbs as a defined object/packet (not just "I could do this with these generic herbs" but "I make a tincture using these that do this"), then that object/packet is an acceptable spell target. Don't get too hung up on the packaging or form if you think it is acceptable as a GM. I was specifically talking about the herbal items listed at the bottom of this page, for example Bone Reed.
Those herbal items aren't specifically mentioned as alchemical consumables, but are neither diseases, poisons, magical potions and they are prepared with the craft (alchamy) skill.
My problem is that they aren't specifically called out as alchemical consumables and therefor would be defined as other consumables, with which Full Pouch wouldn't work.
As written in my original entry I tend to allwo it, since it would fit thematically with both beeing a druid gathering herbs, and the fluff description of the spell (which might use herbs worth 1gp as material component).
I was just looking for some third opinions regarding the RAW aspect and wether I missed something.
Full Pouch:T2 spell comes from PPC line Arcane Anthology 2015-12.
Herbs and Bone Reed come from from Core line Ult Wilderness 2017-11.
The spell came out before the Herbal stuff.
The Core line ignores the Player Companion line although it can adopt ideas from the freelancer written products (such as expanded Familiars etc). IMO Paizo views the Core line as tested canon and RAW while the PPC line is just extra stuff.
So - if you think the herbals are reasonable then you have to use your Home GM powers to add the term "Herbals" to the Full Pouch spell.
Advice
IMO using "alchemical" was just a way to constrain it to non-magical(mundane) items. Non-afflictions was the other constraint. Those two keep it pretty tame but allow wide use. I think you should have an Evil version that allows copying some bad stuff (Poison prices are a bit wonky). Thus I don't have an issue with non-magical herbals as Herbal was just another flavor category that was likely intended to run off Pro(Herbalist) rather than Craft(Alchemy).
My only concern is the cost. You don't want a Second level spell producing a 1500gp effect. So I'd limit Full Pouch to mundane non-afflictions herbal and alchemical items of (25*CL)gp value. That keeps it from going crazy or being abused.
Advice -
OH, and the Duration of the effect should be limited to CL Hrs or 24hrs for a duplicate (it creates a duplicate rather than two originals). This keeps the duplicate from being SOLD as an income producer. clever caster's could duplicate a duplicate I admit I advise a lot of caution when it comes to something like this. PFS okay'd it BUT has two limitations that affect the duplicate; 1) only specific items carry over from one game to another and this is not given a pass so the duplicate would expire after the game. You get to keep the original as you paid for it. 2) you sell at half what you paid so the duplicate has no value as you paid nothing.
As I recall the old chat when this came out was that it could not be used for Alchemist's Infusions or Extracts (due to magical aura mixing).
I personally wouldn't mind letting it reproduce magical potions with the gold and time constraints. If it were permanent then that would be a hard NO.
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