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How high an AC can we get now that we have the Treasure Vault? (Not counting things external to the character themselves, such as taking cover.)
What is the tankiest tank to ever tank?
Personally I like this tank.
Something you wield, wear, activate, or manipulate would not be external. A tower shield is not external, but a wall or tree would be.
I should have said, "such as taking cover behind a murder hole."
How high an AC can we get now that we have the Treasure Vault? (Not counting things external to the character themselves, such as taking cover.)What, no tower shields? That's still the best circumstance AC bonus, +4 between raise a shield and take cover.
Champion with heavy armor (since they get legendary) gives you +6 item from armor, +3 from runes, and +8 proficiency.
The best status bonus to AC I can find is Warding Aggression, +3 the first round and +2 for a minute after, assuming it crits. For unconditional bonuses, Forbidding Ward (but only on one target) gives +2.
There may be some untyped bonuses I'm not thinking about, but putting that all together you can hit 44 AC at level 20 I think? ...while not really doing anything else, granted.
Treerazor still hits you on anything but a 1.
You are missing the base 10 to AC, that would be 54 AC during the first round. 44 is what a normal light/medium armor martial with no shield has at 20.
As mentioned in other threads, TV has added a Common option to get a persistent Status bonus to AC (unlike the Protection spells which are Uncommon). The Cassisian Helmet grants a +1 status bonus to AC and saves against evil creatures and effects.
A 54 AC is awesome but, to expand on Red Griffyn's post, I have found in play that a character can also be made durable by stacking different types of damage mitigation; such as Resistances, Temporary Hit Points, and Fast Healing, in addition to AC and Saves.
TV adds a few new options in this regard. For example, the Numbing Tonic and Soothing Tonic provide Temporary Hit Points and Fast Healing, respectively. As these are Elixirs but not Mutagens, they can be combined with a Mutagen; such as a Fury Cocktail, an Energy Mutagen, or a Stonebody Mutagen. A single Alchemist, Multiclass Alchemist, or Alchemical Sciences Investigator could stack various Resistances, Temporary HPs, and Fast Healing, without needing to Sustain multiple spells like a Bard or Witch.
If your 'brewmaster' administers these options to your 54 AC Champion or Mountain Stance Monk before beginning a 'boss fight', you are going to have a happy tank I think.
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I think this is a fun topic so I am going to attempt to keep it going. As discussed above, I understand that Tanking means more than just AC, but for purposes of theory crafting, I am going to propose what I think would be a very durable Tank. I currently play in games at a local gaming shop where the group composition is like a box of chocolates (you never know what you are going to get...) so this build will be self-sufficient without support from other characters.
In addition to the above mentioned Tonics, TV added a few more items (namely the Collar of the Shifting Spider and Troll Hide) that support the idea of an Alchemical Tank well. Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!
Mutagenist Alchemist
Ancestry: Human, Half-Orc
Background: Field Medic
Level 1 Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 10, CHA 10
Level 20 Ability Scores: STR 22 (Apex Item), DEX 18, CON 20, INT 20, WIS 14, CHA 10
Ancestry Feats: Orc Weapon Familiarity, Orc Ferocity, Pervasive Superstition, Incredible Ferocity, Rampaging Ferocity
Class Feats: Alchemical Familiar, Psychic Dedication (The Tangible Dream, Shield), Basic Psychic Spellcasting, Psi Development (Imaginary weapon), Familiar Master Dedication, Improved or Incredible Familiar, Expert Psychic Spellcasting, Extend Elixir, Persistent Mutagen, Master Psychic Spellcasting, Perfect Mutagen
Skill Feats: Battle Medicine, Alchemical Crafting, Continual Recovery, Ward Medic, Assurance (Medicine), Advanced First Aid, Stitch Flesh, Risky Surgery, Forensic Acumen, Robust Recovery, Innoculation, Legendary Medic
General Feats: Incredible Initiative, Ancestral Paragon (Orc Superstition), Toughness, Fleet, Canny Acumen (Will)
Equipment: Greataxe, Collar of the Shifting Spider, Cassisian Helmet, Troll Hide, Apex STR Item, Weapon and Armor Runes
Build Progression Notes:
There may some table variation on this but I have been allowed by GMs to carry Elixirs in hand before combat (when other characters are carrying their items). If your GM is generous, he may also allow your Familiar to carry an Elixir. On the first turn of combat, consume carried Elixirs and draw a weapon. One the second and later turns of combat, Cast or Sustain an Amped Shield. In the early levels, 'buffing up' will cost you your first turn of combat but as the build progresses, there are increasing ways to mitigate the action cost. Despite their Item Bonus to Attack Rolls, Mutagenists notoriously suffer from accuracy issues. When the action economy allows, add Bless or Heroism to your buffing turn. In addition, the Familiar feats will eventually allow for a Crawling Hand with Independent for a free Aid to Attack Rolls. Together, these Bonuses will bring you closer to the accuracy of other Martials.
Level 1 - Mutagenic Flashback as a Free Action to activate a Mutagen once per day
Level 2 - Shield Block as a Reaction 3 times per combat
Level 5 - Collar of the Shifting Spider as a Free Action to use a Mutagen
Level 6 - Shield Block 6 times per combat
Level 10 - Crawling Hand, depending on table variation regarding Independent, may be possible for Familiar to use two Actions over two turns to retrieve and hand you an Elixir without being Commanded
Level 13 - Greater Field Discovery, two Mutagens active at the same time
Level 15 - Troll Hide as a Single Action to gain 8 rounds of Regeneration
Level 16 - Persistent Mutagen, two Mutagens active at all times
Level 20 - Perfect Mutagen, removes the Penalties for Mutagens
Level 20 Damage Mitigation Summary:
Someone please correct me if Fast Healing and Regeneration can't be used at the same time.
- AC 47 (Drakeheart Mutagen, Potency Rune, Amped Shield, Cassisian Helmet)
- Master in all Saves, +3 Item Bonus (Resilient Rune), +1 Circumstance Bonus vs. Magic (Pervasive Superstition), +2 Status Bonus (Heroism)
- Resistance 5 to Physical Damage (Fury Cocktail, Double additive)
- 25 Temporary HPs per turn (Numbing Tonic)
- Fast Healing 10 (Soothing Tonic)
- Regeneration 19 (Troll Hide, Elixir of Life)
- Shield Block 25 Physical Damage 6 times per combat (Amped Shield)
I think this is a fun topic so I am going to attempt to keep it going. As discussed above, I understand that Tanking means more than just AC, but for purposes of theory crafting, I am going to propose what I think would be a very durable Tank. I currently play in games at a local gaming shop where the group composition is like a box of chocolates (you never know what you are going to get...) so this build will be self-sufficient without support from other characters.
In addition to the above mentioned Tonics, TV added a few more items (namely the Collar of the Shifting Spider and Troll Hide) that support the idea of an Alchemical Tank well. Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!
Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...
I love this build, but I have 2 questions about things I don't understand.
You mention shield blocking 6 times per round. Do you mean via casting amped shield twice? If so, I don't think you can cast it more than once per 10 minutes.
Also, you mention using your familiar to Aid you but that requires using a reaction that familiars don't get due to having the minion trait.
But maybe there's something to both of these that I'm not getting.
The good news is that neither issue really invalidates the build.
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... You mention shield blocking 6 times per [strike]round[/strike] combat. Do you mean via casting amped shield twice? If so, I don't think you can cast it more than once per 10 minutes...
Amp'd Shield gives three layers. The cooldown happens if all three layers are broken. So you can conceivably cast Amp'd Shield, block twice, dismiss it/don't sustain it, then recast and repeat. With three focus points, that's 6 Shield Blocks.
How high an AC can we get now that we have the Treasure Vault? (Not counting things external to the character themselves, such as taking cover.)
In my experience, AC doesn't do a whole lot to prevent high amounts of damage. It really only excels at preventing criticals, since odds are, an enemy will have high enough to-hit that them missing you are the same chances of a Blur spell successfully triggering, meaning they have on average a 30% (or higher) chance of critically hitting you. In such cases, Blur does more damage mitigation than a couple AC points, since it adds another layer of potential miss chance that is stronger and stacks quite easily.
Similarly, it doesn't do anything against non-AC attacks, like Reflex-save based effects. You have 50 AC? Meanwhile, they throw a DC 45 (or higher) Reflex Save at you, and you have maybe +32 (20 Proficiency + 6 Master + 3 Item + 3 Dexterity/Bulwark).
Having played a Champion to 17th alongside a Fighter (at which point we got TPK'd, because Giants with 15 foot reach and AoOs are pretty OP), I get absolutely destroyed against Reflex-based effects, and this is having a 14 Dexterity Champion who took Canny Acumen for Reflex (instead of Perception like I would have wanted to); meanwhile, said Fighter who invests in Shield feats can shrug off the deadliest of Reflex-save based effects because Evasion is the strongest damage mitigation feature in the game.
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A couple of notes on the Alchemist build:
Someone please correct me if Fast Healing and Regeneration can't be used at the same time.
They can, they are different abilities with similar effects.
- AC 47 (Drakeheart Mutagen, Potency Rune, Amped Shield, Cassisian Helmet)
Drakeheart bonus AC does not stack with your potency runes. This makes the Drakeheart Mutagen equal to Heavy Armor AC at level 20 (+7 Item +2 Dex, vs +9 Item). Using an actual shield, even without the Shield Block reaction, would get you +2 instead, or +3 with a Fortress Shield. This comes out to 49 AC with the Fortress Shield raised.
(10 + 20 Level + 6 Proficiency + 7 Item + 2 Dex + 3 Circumstance + 1 Status)- Shield Block 25 Physical Damage 6 times per combat (Amped Shield)
An Amped Shield can only be used 3 times, and when it breaks it is on cooldown for 10 minutes. You can use 1 layer for 25 each, 2 layers for 37, or all three layers for 50.
... An Amped Shield can only be used 3 times, and when it breaks it is on cooldown for 10 minutes. You can use 1 layer for 25 each, 2 layers for 37, or all three layers for 50.
Covered above. The amp'd shield only goes on cooldown if you break (i.e. block with) all three layers. You can block twice for 25, let the shield drop, and then recast it without triggering the cooldown.
So, you can, with 3 focus points, actually block with amp'd shield a up to 7 times per combat (albeit forgoing the AC bonus after the 7th block).
I think this is a fun topic so I am going to attempt to keep it going. As discussed above, I understand that Tanking means more than just AC, but for purposes of theory crafting, I am going to propose what I think would be a very durable Tank. I currently play in games at a local gaming shop where the group composition is like a box of chocolates (you never know what you are going to get...) so this build will be self-sufficient without support from other characters.
In addition to the above mentioned Tonics, TV added a few more items (namely the Collar of the Shifting Spider and Troll Hide) that support the idea of an Alchemical Tank well. Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!
Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...I love this build, but I have 2 questions about things I don't understand.
You mention shield blocking 6 times per round. Do you mean via casting amped shield twice? If so, I don't think you can cast it more than once per 10 minutes.
Also, you mention using your familiar to Aid you but that requires using a reaction that familiars don't get due to having the minion trait.
But maybe there's something to both of these that I'm not getting.
The good news is that neither issue really invalidates the build.
I'm glad you liked it!
I think the others have answered the question regarding 6 blocks better than I could have (thank you all!) and frankly I feel silly that I didn't realize there is a potential for 7 breaks in a combat (no reason to cancel early when on your last focus point). As this is already a familiar build, it may be worth looking into Familiar Focus for an extra focus point once per day.
In regards to the familiar using Aid, I was thinking of using a Crawling Hand for this build which allows the familiar to Aid an attack roll.
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I think this is a fun topic so I am going to attempt to keep it going. As discussed above, I understand that Tanking means more than just AC, but for purposes of theory crafting, I am going to propose what I think would be a very durable Tank. I currently play in games at a local gaming shop where the group composition is like a box of chocolates (you never know what you are going to get...) so this build will be self-sufficient without support from other characters.
In addition to the above mentioned Tonics, TV added a few more items (namely the Collar of the Shifting Spider and Troll Hide) that support the idea of an Alchemical Tank well. Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!
Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...I love this build, but I have 2 questions about things I don't understand.
You mention shield blocking 6 times per round. Do you mean via casting amped shield twice? If so, I don't think you can cast it more than once per 10 minutes.
Also, you mention using your familiar to Aid you but that requires using a reaction that familiars don't get due to having the minion trait.
But maybe there's something to both of these that I'm not getting.
The good news is that neither issue really invalidates the build.
I'm glad you liked it!
I think the others have answered the question regarding 6 blocks better than I could have (thank you all!) and frankly I feel silly that I didn't realize there is a potential for 7 breaks in a combat (no reason to cancel early when on your last focus point). As this is already a familiar build, it may be worth looking into Familiar Focus for an extra focus point once per day.
In regards to the familiar using Aid, I was thinking of using a Crawling Hand for this build which allows the familiar to Aid an attack...
Oh wow! I didn't think to look at the specific familiar. I thought it was just chosen for good Alchemist flavor synergy. That's really cool.
If my tank Warpriest in Kingmaker dies or gets boring I think I'll give it a try.
Thank you for explaining!
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...I think this is a fun topic so I am going to attempt to keep it going. As discussed above, I understand that Tanking means more than just AC, but for purposes of theory crafting, I am going to propose what I think would be a very durable Tank. I currently play in games at a local gaming shop where the group composition is like a box of chocolates (you never know what you are going to get...) so this build will be self-sufficient without support from other characters.
In addition to the above mentioned Tonics, TV added a few more items (namely the Collar of the Shifting Spider and Troll Hide) that support the idea of an Alchemical Tank well. Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!
Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...I love this build, but I have 2 questions about things I don't understand.
You mention shield blocking 6 times per round. Do you mean via casting amped shield twice? If so, I don't think you can cast it more than once per 10 minutes.
Also, you mention using your familiar to Aid you but that requires using a reaction that familiars don't get due to having the minion trait.
But maybe there's something to both of these that I'm not getting.
The good news is that neither issue really invalidates the build.
I'm glad you liked it!
I think the others have answered the question regarding 6 blocks better than I could have (thank you all!) and frankly I feel silly that I didn't realize there is a potential for 7 breaks in a combat (no reason to cancel early when on your last focus point). As this is already a familiar build, it may be worth looking into Familiar Focus for an extra focus point once per day.
In regards to the familiar using Aid, I was thinking of using a Crawling Hand for this build which allows the
Indeed. Awesome familiar ability I had not seen mentioned before.
And despite the flavor text, it seems usable with Reach and ranged attacks.
Note though that it benefits an ally, not its master, since in PF2, you are not your own ally.
Indeed. Awesome familiar ability I had not seen mentioned before.
And despite the flavor text, it seems usable with Reach and ranged attacks.
Note though that it benefits an ally, not its master, since in PF2, you are not your own ally.
This is an interesting point that I had not considered. In the ability text, it is the familiar that performs the reaction to aid an ally. Is the master not the familiar's ally?
Source Book of the Dead pg. 40
The crawling hand assists an ally in the same space to attack a foe, crawling over the enemy and grabbing to distract them. Despite being a minion, it gains 1 reaction at the start of its turns, which it can use only to Aid an attack roll by an ally that shares the hand's space (it still has to prepare to help as normal for the Aid reaction). This attempt automatically succeeds. If the crawling hand has a similar ability, like partner in crime, it still gains only 1 reaction and can choose how to spend it.
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Indeed. Awesome familiar ability I had not seen mentioned before.
And despite the flavor text, it seems usable with Reach and ranged attacks.
Note though that it benefits an ally, not its master, since in PF2, you are not your own ally.
This is an interesting point that I had not considered. In the ability text, it is the familiar that performs the reaction to aid an ally. Is the master not the familiar's ally?
** spoiler omitted **
I would say no because of the Partner in crime description that states "you". And I read Ally as ally of the master, not of the familiar.
I guess it will be an Ask your GM thing.
Indeed. Awesome familiar ability I had not seen mentioned before.
And despite the flavor text, it seems usable with Reach and ranged attacks.
Note though that it benefits an ally, not its master, since in PF2, you are not your own ally.
This is an interesting point that I had not considered. In the ability text, it is the familiar that performs the reaction to aid an ally. Is the master not the familiar's ally?
** spoiler omitted **I would say no because of the Partner in crime description that states "you". And I read Ally as ally of the master, not of the familiar.
I guess it will be an Ask your GM thing.
Probably better that it assist the party fighter, rogue, or other martial rather than the caster anyways.
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Probably better that it assist the party fighter, rogue, or other martial rather than the caster anyways.Indeed. Awesome familiar ability I had not seen mentioned before.
And despite the flavor text, it seems usable with Reach and ranged attacks.
Note though that it benefits an ally, not its master, since in PF2, you are not your own ally.
This is an interesting point that I had not considered. In the ability text, it is the familiar that performs the reaction to aid an ally. Is the master not the familiar's ally?
** spoiler omitted **I would say no because of the Partner in crime description that states "you". And I read Ally as ally of the master, not of the familiar.
I guess it will be an Ask your GM thing.
Sure, but some Martials with caster dedication, or a Magus, might want the benefit for themselves.
Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!
Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm back with more curious questions for you!
1) why half-orc instead of orc? I can't tell what you are using human for...all ancestry feats are orc feats for example.
2) what would you do with this build if you had free archetype?
Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!
Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...I'm back with more curious questions for you!
1) why half-orc instead of orc? I can't tell what you are using human for...all ancestry feats are orc feats for example.
2) what would you do with this build if you had free archetype?
Sorry I missed this post, I was away for a bit.
1) There is no reason now I think. An earlier version of the build used Ancestral Paragon to take Natural Ambition to take an additional Class Feat but as the build no longer has Natural Ambition, Orc works too.2) I have never used this rule (I have only played in PFS) so I am going to only partially answer so I don't make myself look silly. My first thought was Psychic or Familiar Master to make room for more Alchemist feats but I believe that in Remastered there will be no limit on the number of Focus Points you can have. If this is the case, any class that has a lot of "Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1" feats may be a good choice (to fuel more Amped Shields).
Please find my build below and try to top this Tankiest Tank to ever Tank!
Mutagenist Alchemist
** spoiler omitted **...I'm back with more curious questions for you!
1) why half-orc instead of orc? I can't tell what you are using human for...all ancestry feats are orc feats for example.
2) what would you do with this build if you had free archetype?Sorry I missed this post, I was away for a bit.
1) There is no reason now I think. An earlier version of the build used Ancestral Paragon to take Natural Ambition to take an additional Class Feat but as the build no longer has Natural Ambition, Orc works too.
2) I have never used this rule (I have only played in PFS) so I am going to only partially answer so I don't make myself look silly. My first thought was Psychic or Familiar Master to make room for more Alchemist feats but I believe that in Remastered there will be no limit on the number of Focus Points you can have. If this is the case, any class that has a lot of "Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1" feats may be a good choice (to fuel more Amped Shields).
It has been clarified that there is still a hard limit of 3 focus points.
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I do love how Tanky a Mutagenist can get, even without going Psychic. Keep in mind though that Persistent Mutagen can't be used with two Mutagens as it specifies once per day.
My own take:
1st Level Alchemical Familiar, General Training for Shield Block
2nd Level Martial Artist Dedication
3rd Level Ancestral Paragon for Orc Ferocity
4th Level Revivifying Mutagen
5th Level Bloody Blows
6th Level Follow-Up Strike
7th Level Toughness
8th Level Feral Mutagen
9th Level Clever Improvisor
10th Level Grievous Blow
11th Level Incredible Initiative
12th Level Extend Elixir
13th Level Incredible Ferocity
14th Level Invincible Mutagen
15th Level Diehard, Troll Hide
16th Level Eternal Elixir
17th Level Rampaging Ferocity
18th Level Improbable Elixirs
19th Level Canny Acumen (Will Saves)
20th Level Perfect Mutagen
So, not quite as Tanky. I picture having a Supreme Sturdy Shield at L20. So AC 47 when it's Raised. But still, the amount of damage this guy could soak is ridiculous.
Let's go through it:
288 HP (Con +5, Toughness)
Major Juggernaut Mutagen (45 Temp HP)
Physical Damage Resistance 4 (Int +4, Invincible Mutagen)
Major Soothing Tonic: Fast Healing 10
True Numbing Tonic: 25 Temp HP/round when the Juggernaut goes below 25.
Shield Block for 20 HP each as appropriate. Oddly, he could spend a round to repair the shield in Combat, but I think that's highly unlikely.
Troll Hide with True Elixirs of Life for 19 HP of Healing per round.
Fun once a day option: wait for the Temp HP from Juggernaut Mutagen to go below 25. Take some real damage. Revivifying Mutagen for 8d6 healing, then Mutagenic Flashback for the full 45 Temp HP.
Truth be told, in my ideal build it'd be Constitution +3 instead of +5, but still, Tanky.
These Alchemist builds have turned me on to the value of the Alchemist and Herbalist archetypes for increasing tankiness.
I've been looking at a Wood/Water support with the Herbalist archetype.
Wood's Impulse Junction gives your level in temp hp each round the kineticist uses a 2 or 3 action impulse. This is a good stand-in for numbing tonic. And with Herbalist you can get up to L17 formulae which nets you fast healing 10 from Major Soothing Tonic and 15 regeneration from Major Elixir of Life/Troll Hide.
If you go Sprite and take Fey Skin, grab Mountain's Stoutness via Adopted Ancestry, and take Golem Grafter Dedication, you can get to 386 HP at L20 + 20 temp HP per round. This assumes a 24 Con at 20 via Apex item.
You can also do lots of healing with Water and Wood impulses (Fresh Produce, Dash of Herbs, Tree of Duality, Sanguivolent Roots, Ocean's Balm, & Torrent in the Blood) not to mention the damage mitigation of Timber Sentinel. Throw in Medic Dedication, and it gets pretty nuts (probably overkill).
And you can still do respectable damage with Water's Elemental Blast, Hail of Splinters (does persistent bleed damage), Tidal Hands and Call the Hurricane,
as well as debuff with Drifting Pollen. Water and Wood both have access to strong control options too via Wooden Palisade, Jagged Berms, and Barrier of Boreal Frost.
It's an embarrassment of riches.