Critical Hits and Critical Immune Clarification


Rules Discussion


The clarification reads:

"Immunity to critical hits reads “When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage.” This means what it says: The attack deals normal damage instead of double damage. Other effects specific to a critical hit still occur, such as critical specialization effects and extra damage dice from traits like deadly and fatal. You also still have the option to use abilities that trigger on critical hits, like the vorpal rune’s reaction (though many creatures immune to crits also don’t need heads to live, lucky devils). Your GM can still say no to extremely strange consequences of this rule on a case-by-case basis."

The last line is my concern here.

My players were were level 11 and facing a Carnivorous Blob (https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=755) which is a giant flesh eating ooze.

First of all, I was confused about how it could split if it was immune to piercing/slashing so I ran that aspect of the encounter incorrectly (since I had seen other oozes that weren't immune to piercing/slashing and the idea of the two halves creature hitting just as hard and taking up just as much space individually despite being cut in half seemed weird to me). So whoops.

So let's review some crit effects.

1, the party had a number of Flaming runes -- it sounds like I should have basically had the persistent fire damage apply from the very first hit (because basically everything crits against an ooze).

2, the barbarian crit with a halberd. While it was immune to the damage (and should have split, whoops again), should the ooze have been moved 5 feet?

3, the fighter crit with a maul. This was the party's most effective weapon against the ooze, but should the ooze have been knocked prone?

I assume anything related to #1 (like a Frost rune or whatever) is the same.

I'm mainly concerned about #2 and #3. Both seem like they might fall into the "your GM can still say no" category given the opponent is an ooze.


Yes to all three. They all look pretty clearly to be the situations the clarification was meant to address

If you wanted to make a case against any of them, 2 would be the one most up to GM discretion. Is the foe being moved because they took so much damage (which they were immune to, but should still have been affected by in the form of being split, as you say), or due to the superb control of the wielder? I personally wouldn't say it's enough of an "extremely strange consequence" to deny it


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Baarogue wrote:
Yes to all three. They all look pretty clearly to be the situations the clarification was meant to address

Agreed.

And a prone ooze may be difficult to describe, but it should still have its mechanical effect.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Baarogue wrote:
Yes to all three. They all look pretty clearly to be the situations the clarification was meant to address

Agreed.

And a prone ooze may be difficult to describe, but it should still have its mechanical effect.

I dunno. The amorphous creature flattened by a seemingly mortal blow which then takes a moment to reform into its original shape is a pretty common visual :D

Sovereign Court

Yeah I wouldn't call 1-3 "extremely strange". They're the common cases that the clarification talks about.

I think that before this clarification, unofficial dev advice was that fatal and deadly didn't work on crit immune because that would not be doing only normal damage. So that seems like a bit of a course change.


Balkoth wrote:
First of all, I was confused about how it could split if it was immune to piercing/slashing so I ran that aspect of the encounter incorrectly (since I had seen other oozes that weren't immune to piercing/slashing and the idea of the two halves creature hitting just as hard and taking up just as much space individually despite being cut in half seemed weird to me)

Slightly adjacent to your point, but note that a blob which splits once, dividing its volume in two, it should still be about 80% size, which I suppose is almost enough to reduce the area of a creature with a 4x4 space to a 3x3 space, at least assuming it retained the same general shape as at full size. Getting down to 50% size requires 3 splits, at which point I really hope somebody in the party has noticed that the tactics isn't working.

(incidentally, I too ran my first blob monster incorrectly--I missed that the black pudding was immune to P/S and so my party's archer was just unloading three new blobs per round into the room, completely oblivious to how their efforts almost guaranteed a TPK because nobody in the party had AoE).)


That's a fair point that I hadn't considered with the volume due to the vertical dimension.

Still seems weird that a 20x20x20 foot ooze that literally can't be cut or pierced has its whole mass displaced 5 feet basically automatically by someone with polearm specialization.

Also odd that the 20x20x20 foot ooze can have a tiny piece hit by a mace wielded by a 4 foot fall creature and the whole thing effectively collapses. At least if it's against a dragon you assume they hit its toe just right or some other hit against a more vulnerable area (aka a crit).

Baarogue wrote:
I dunno. The amorphous creature flattened by a seemingly mortal blow which then takes a moment to reform into its original shape is a pretty common visual :D

If the whole thing was getting flatted by a titanic hammer I could see that I guess, but you'd have to smash a huge section of the ooze.

It also kind of bugs me that a crit on a ooze is basically MORE common than a hit so apparently EVERY blow would be that kind of mortal blow which seems...off.


Ascalaphus wrote:
I think that before this clarification, unofficial dev advice was that fatal and deadly didn't work on crit immune because that would not be doing only normal damage. So that seems like a bit of a course change.

Yea it does feel a bit counterintuitive that "immunity to critical hits" actually means "almost everything that normally happens on a crit still happens".


Balkoth wrote:

Still seems weird that a 20x20x20 foot ooze that literally can't be cut or pierced has its whole mass displaced 5 feet basically automatically by someone with polearm specialization.

It may be a minor distinction, but I don't think it's so much that the ooze cannot be cut as it cannot be hurt from a cut. If you factor in the Split aesthetics what I see is that any piercing or slashing attack slices too easily though the ooze, and it peels in half along that fault line without actually losing any mass, therefore raking no damage from it.

(And of course, if you picture it like that, it seems reasonable that it would be difficult to shift the mass with a P/S pole arm. This is where the GM fiat comes into play I imagine)


Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
And of course, if you picture it like that, it seems reasonable that it would be difficult to shift the mass with a P/S pole arm.

Precisely.

And that such an ooze which is immune to crits gets affected more by critical hits (due to them happening far more frequently) than a creature non immune to critical hits is also weird.


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That part of it I don't find that weird. It's immune to critical hits because there is no chunk of its anatomy you can hit to deal a devastating blow, the best you can do is to keep tearing pieces off of it. Despite this, they tend to have low AC because they are slow and unarmoured. In some cases it makes sense that you can line up a near-perfect strike every time, to the point where even your wild 3rd-attack swings are hitting regularly. It just so happens that no matter how perfectly you align the strike it's still a regular hit.

Now, with bonus effects keying off a crit, some are going to make more sense than others depending on what the crit-immune monster is. If you have a creature that can be pinned to a wall with an arrow, the fact that it doesn't take extra damage might have nothing to do with how easily you can land that pin.

Oozes are a bit of an outlier, but their super low AC tells you that it's not weird, it's expected for crits to land on them more often than other creatures. The fact that this doesn't hurt them is just the other half of the basic expression of what these oozes are. Since oozes are quite so particular, it makes sense that you're more often going to make a judgment call what crit effects apply. For example, if the flaming rune lights a target on fire any time the weapon strikes a target dead on, it would be more weird if it didn't do that just because the target is incredibly easy to hit.

Sovereign Court

Oozes are probably the most common group of creatures with immunity to critical hits. So I'm going to lean towards allowing most of the things that could happen on crits, as described in the clarification. I think the extremely unusual circumstances should mostly be something that happens with more exotic creatures.


Fair in regards to stuff like weapon runes, I'm specifically more concerned about Weapon Specialization crit effects, and in particular a medium creature essentially automatically knocking a gargantuan ooze prone every turn.

Incidentally they specifically call out arrow pinning not working vs some oozes:

"The creature doesn't become stuck if it is incorporeal, is liquid (like a water elemental or some oozes), or could otherwise escape without effort."

Sovereign Court

Incorporeal creatures are protected from a lot of stuff because you can't use strength-based checks against them, like Athletics to trip/shove/grab.

Oozes have no such immunity, you can trip an ooze with Athletics. That's maybe not quite as easy as a hammer crit but they still tend to have poor Reflex. It seems a bit of a strain to say you can make them prone with trip but not with critical specialization.


In order to trip a Gargantuan ooze as a Medium creature you'd need to be Legendary in Athletics and have Titan Wrestler. Vs being able to easily trip a level 13 Carnivorous Ooze as a level 8-9 fighter with a one-handed flail or something due to critical specialization and low AC.

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