I was looking at the Wildborn Archetype for Barbarian for a character I’m planning to make in a future campaign and I just wanted to get a little clarification on something with its weapon proficiencies…
To start I’m well aware that it is heavily restricted on what types of weapons it can use. I understand that part… ”all simple weapons that can be crafted from bone, stone, or wood.”
Bone: “Light and one-handed melee weapons, as well as twohanded weapons that deal bludgeoning damage only, can be crafted from bone. Hafted two-handed weapons such as spears can be crafted with bone tips, as can arrowheads. Other two-handed weapons cannot be constructed of bone.”
Stone: “Light and one-handed bludgeoning weapons, spears, axes, daggers, and arrowheads can all be made of stone.”
And wood is just Stakes, Clubs, Spears, Javelins, Staves, Sticks, & Bows…
Which boils down to she can use all simple weapons except for Kumade, Bayonet, & Crossbows…
My question though is this… it says “that can be crafted from” not “that are crafted from”… so am I actually allowed to use metal simple weapons without incurring this penalty: “If she uses any other kind of weapon or armor, she loses her abilities from this archetype (except illiteracy) for the next 24 hours.”?
The reason I’m wondering is because I intend to have the character in question be an Oread, and I’m contemplating taking the Ferrous Growth ART on her. I want to make sure if she could actually use metal weapons crafted through that ability before settling on it. If not, I’ll probably just stick to their normal Spell-like ability of Magic Stone.
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Looks to that a metal spear would be okay to use. As an aside, I find i5 a bit silly that stone axes and bows with flint arrowheads are not part of the proficiencies for this class, both seem iconic to me. And no wooden or hide shields?
I find the lack of proficiency in stone axes and bows a bit silly too… i find the martial proficiency of bows and simple proficiency of crossbows even sillier… I’ve used both and it actually takes a lot more skill to use a medieval crossbow than it takes to use a bow… sure point and release may sound simple enough, but loading them is difficult and aiming them is not as easy as you might think…
I also just noticed… they are not actually proficient with Slings either… their only ranged weapon choices are Blowgun, Dart, & Javelin…
A sling could use stone ammo, though the sling itself is made of leather which is not allowed, lol.
Tangent on bow/crossbow proficiency: my experience with archery is that using a bow is easy, hitting a target is surprisingly not. This would fits with making it a martial weapon. I've never shot a crossbow, but I'd guess that not having to hold the draw makes it easier to aim? And I find it amusing that any primitive dunce can figure out how to load one.
My question though is this… it says “that can be crafted from” not “that are crafted from”…
I think the "can be" is just fluffy language. Like, if you can bring "what you can carry in your hands" doesn't mean you can bring 15 bags that you can each carry individually in your hands but not all at once.
Reading the class decription helps a lot, here: "These wildborn fight and survive without ever seeing a forge". Does that sound like using metal weapons to you?
Thats the core of why I asked… the fluff seems to suggest probably not, but the wording of the rules leave it uncertain.
Idea in favor of allowing metal weapons: the restriction is one of background technology, you have only learned weapons that could be mad with your native (low) tech. But if you get your hands on a steel spear it would be used just like the flint ones you are used to.
Idea in favor of the strict reading Derklord favors: there is some sort of vow involved. This is further supported by the way that archetype abilities are lost if prohibited weapons and armor are used.
The way I see it the restriction is like a druid’s restriction. The fact that you lose class abilities for 24 hours when you violate the restriction makes it clear this has nothing to do with knowing how to use a weapon. Even if you know how to use other weapons you still lose the abilities of the archetype when you use them. It is essentially a taboo against using any weapons except those of your culture. As such I would say that the character cannot use a metal weapon without losing the abilities granted by the archetype.
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Looks to that a metal spear would be okay to use. As an aside, I find i5 a bit silly that stone axes and bows with flint arrowheads are not part of the proficiencies for this class, both seem iconic to me. And no wooden or hide shields?
These wildborn fight and survive without ever seeing a forge or worked stone
Apparently, it doesn't know how to make flint arrowheads. He can make only the crudest stone weapons.
Weird archetype, as the loss of the archetype abilities if it uses an inappropriate weapon is something appropriate for a person taking a vow, not for someone not knowing how to make something.It gives me the feeling that initially it was something different and then was edited for the book.
Well I guess it doesn’t really change much about the character I was going to make either way… I intend on her to primarily use improvised weapons and hurling boulders… I’m not convinced its a vow of no metal like with druids… it honestly reads to me as limited to primitive knowledge and skill restriction… I’m perfectly aware that use of any weapon they are not proficient with by merit of this archetype only results in loss of archetype abilities, so even if I were to gain proficiency with something like say an Earthbreaker, because she wasn't proficient with it via Wildborn use of the weapon would remove access to get wildborn abilities for 24hours… that makes sense… but the restriction doesn’t actually say she can only use weapons made of those materials, just that she cant use weapons that CANT BE MADE OF those materials. It just doesn't feel like a vow to me, more a restriction to what they know and understand, and the loss of their abilities stemming from a sense of wonder and befuddlement when using unknown weaponry.
Thankyou for your input, I’ll run it all by my GM and see what they say… but it looks like I might just skip the Ferrous Growth ART and not bother with metal weapons on her…
When you use a forbidden weapon or armor you lose all abilities from this archetype for the next 24 hours. You regain those abilities 24 hours after your last use of a forbidden armor or weapon. The abilities you lose are catch off-guard, improved unarmed strike, Live off the land, and Inexhaustible. So, hitting someone with sword you pick up means you lose the ability to fight with your bare hands and recover from a punch for 24 hours, and your bonuses to survive in the wilderness.
Some wildborn will actually be proficient with other weapons, but they still lose all the abilities of the archetype when using those weapons. A half orc wildborn barbarian is still proficient with the falchion and great axe, but still loses the abilities of the archetype when using those weapons.
A lot of what you lose has nothing to do with the weapons and stays lost for a set amount of time. That suggests some sort of mystic penalty instead of having anything to do with knowing how to use the weapon. Maybe the benefits are due to protective spirits of your tribe. When you break their rules, they abandon you for a while until you follow their rules.
Another option for you would be to use ferrous growth to create an improvised weapon instead of an actual weapon. You have catch off-guard so do not take any penalty from using an improvised weapon. This would allow you to use the damage of any weapon not just a spear. Nothing in the description of ferrous growth says the item cannot be considered an improvised weapon.
Personally, if this were in my game, I would probably not have a problem with an oread character creating a weapon out of meatal without losing the abilities of the archetype. I would however say that is you used a manufactured metal weapon it would cause you to lose the archetype abilities for 24 hours.
Use of swords or any other martial or exotic weapon was never in question… very clear that any weapons not on the proficiency lost for Wildborn incurs that penalty, regardless of if I have proficiency through other means… the question was in regards to the weapons that ARE on that proficiency list, as to if them being made of metal was a problem…
But you do bring up a good point with improvised metal weapons… I could indeed make it into a tool or any other metal object to use as an improvised weapon without issues… and there are still plenty of utility uses for Ferrous Growth that I could find for her… a cooking pot, grappling hook, crowbar, pole, or even a temporary weapon or shield for someone else…
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In a home game, I would change the penalty for using inappropriate weapons. As I said, to me it seems as if the archetype, as originally written, before being modified to be printed in the book, had some stronger power linked to social/spiritual taboos.
So, at my table, I would give the character a penalty with inappropriate weapons and armor, something that couldn't be removed even when acquiring the appropriate proficiencies.
It seems more in line with the archetype abilities.
In a home game, I would change the penalty for using inappropriate weapons. As I said, to me it seems as if the archetype, as originally written, before being modified to be printed in the book, had some stronger power linked to social/spiritual taboos.
So, at my table, I would give the character a penalty with inappropriate weapons and armor, something that couldn't be removed even when acquiring the appropriate proficiencies.
It seems more in line with the archetype abilities.
Something like permanent non-proficiency with inappropriate weapons?
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Something like permanent non-proficiency with inappropriate weapons?In a home game, I would change the penalty for using inappropriate weapons. As I said, to me it seems as if the archetype, as originally written, before being modified to be printed in the book, had some stronger power linked to social/spiritual taboos.
So, at my table, I would give the character a penalty with inappropriate weapons and armor, something that couldn't be removed even when acquiring the appropriate proficiencies.
It seems more in line with the archetype abilities.
I was thinking something like a -2 to hit with the inappropriate weapons and 2 points more for the armor check penalty.
For the weapons, I would prefer a critical penalty (a reduced critical range or a reduced multiplier), but most simple weapons have a threat of 20 and a multiplier of x2, so it is hard to apply. "You have a reduced proficiency, so you are less able to achieve the top performance from this weapon." seems in line with the background. Maybe a hefty penalty for the confirmation rolls could do the trick.
the fluff seems to suggest probably not, but the wording of the rules leave it uncertain.
I'm a firm believer that rules should do something. As you laid out in the opening post, reading the "can be" as "can potentially be", the words "that can be crafted from bone, stone, or wood" have virtually no effect, as they provide (almost) no limitation that goes beyond the "and all simple weapons". That just doesn't sound sensical to me.
I’m not convinced its a vow of no metal like with druids…
There is no deity that grants the powers, and thus any loss of abilities can only be either self-imposed, or psychological. The archetype description says "These wildborn [...] only dare a trip into the city when no other option is available.", indication not merely a lack of familiarity with the respective weapon, but an aversion to them.
These wildborn fight and survive without ever seeing a forge or worked stoneApparently, it doesn't know how to make flint arrowheads.
I believe that is more about stuff like a Stoneplate armor, not literal stone age weapons. I think the author wanted to differentiate the archetype from Druids, as those can wear Stoneplate.
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I believe that is more about stuff like a Stoneplate armor, not literal stone age weapons. I think the author wanted to differentiate the archetype from Druids, as those can wear Stoneplate.These wildborn fight and survive without ever seeing a forge or worked stoneApparently, it doesn't know how to make flint arrowheads.
It is possible it is about stone buildings, menhirs, and other structures built with stones. The phrase is open to interpretation.
I’ve got another specific use case question regarding this… if I were to pick up a Sledge on her… would using it as a weapon trigger the loss of class abilities? It acts as an improvised earthbreaker when wielded as a weapon… I’m leaning towards it doesn’t create any conflicts as it isn’t a prohibited manufactured weapon, and the archetype emphasizes use of improvised weapons.