How often do you see finesse builds on flexible classes?

[Squiggit]

breithauptclan wrote:

Certainly looks to me like Dex does more things than Str does.

Sure, but we're also hearing from many different people that without specific incentive, they are generally avoiding Dex-focused builds.

Which, like I said, seems to indicate that the balance isn't quite as lopsided as we initially believe it to be in terms of Dex being a god stat.

[gesalt]

breithauptclan wrote:

Dex does do a lot of things. Several skills get their ability bonus from Dex. Dex adds to both AC and Reflex saves. Certainly looks to me like Dex does more things than Str does.

Building impressively high damage dealing melee weapon combatants isn't one of them.

You do understand that str also sets AC and reflex saves right? As well as athletics skill checks. As far as combat goes, it's a question of +3/+4 to reflex saves and no access to maneuvers vs +1 to AC, extra damage, and no access to missile weapons. Dex skills are cool and all, but since every non-plate party member has dex boosted, you can afford to spread those around.

Switch hitters obviously get both but can leave str at 18 while taking dex to 24. Anyone planning to use a casting dedication picks one and eats the cost.

[SuperBidi]

Squiggit wrote:

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

And this is how it SHOULD be since dex does a lot more than strength does.

That's the conventional wisdom, yes. But if hardly anybody is going that route maybe the balance isn't as obvious as we think it is.

I don't think there's a need for Strength and Dexterity to be balanced. Strength is, outside melee martials, mostly useless. It's a basic dump stat for anyone but melee martials. And I hardly see how to make Strength more appealing than it is currently. So if Dexterity and Strength were really balanced, Strength would become a very weak stat (and Dexterity a bit too much of a god stat). Right now, both stats are really important, Dexterity is a stat nearly everyone improves and Strength is the best stat for melee damage.

Still, I also think that the portion of damage coming from a high Strength is too high at low level making Finesse and ranged builds very weak before level 10. I find that sad. PF2 has really improved class' evolution and avoided as much as possible to have strong variation in a class efficiency depending on its level, but it's still not perfect.

[Vodalian]

It's far from a dump stat for casters. The way people commonly build their characters, yes, but that's just because people don't know how to build.

What casters gain from strength:
1. athletics maneuvers at 0-map for one of the best 3rd actions in the game.
2. Heavy armor and bulwark for the price of a few feats, which is not a big price since most caster feats suck.

But you might say: but casters are squishy and not well suited towards grappling and tripping at melee. And you would be right.

That's why you have whip wielding plate armored skeleton sorcerers and bards with lunge from free fighter archetype tripping people from 20 ft away with an athletics bonus that blows their spell DC out of the water, without sacrificing the ability to cast a spell on their turn, and freeing the martials to use their 0-map attacks (over 50% of their dpr) on actually damaging the enemy.

And what is the opportunity cost? If you don't take strength, you need to take dexterity. How often do your casters go sneaking around or pick pocketing people? Stealth is bad in almost every ttrpg, since splitting your party is bad and a recipe to getting your character killed alone in the middle of the enemy lair, and sneaking with your whole group is one of the mathematically most impossible things to achieve, since it requires your entire party to succeed at avoiding detection, so 4 consecutive rolls, for EACH enemy. For a room with 4 monsters that's 16 rolls you need to succeed in for one round of avoiding detection. And if you fail at ANY of the rolls, you are effectively all busted and start the combat in a bad position.

Update: And you might argue that having high dex to hide for personal survivability is advantage enough, to which I say, you actually want all of your party members getting targeted. Especially in a game like pf2e where true tanks don't exist, you want to distribute damage as evenly between party members as possible, to avoid your frontline being focus fired down. And having casters with plate armor and mirror image (from a 12 g scroll) is a big boon to achieving this.

[Deriven Firelion]

I don't think there are any god stats. Dex is good, but it's easy to build up with all the boosts.

Did someone say Dex was a god stat?

I think it's more a matter of what is better for what classes. For casters Dex is a better investment along with Con.

If you're a champion, Dex is an ok investment but not necessary.

You can have problems with a low Dex if the DM builds encounters that a higher dex helps against, but those are few and far between. If the concern is Reflex saves, it should be noted reflex save spells are so dangerous at higher level because they hammer everyone. A single target reflex save spell can hit hard, but that's easy to heal. It's when your whole group gets hammered by multiple AoE reflex save spells that your healer starts to scream, "I can't keep up, We're going to die."

[SuperBidi]

Vodalian wrote:

And what is the opportunity cost?

2 General feats, 1 Archetype, 5 feet of speed, slightly lower Reflex saves, one hand and 3 proficiency increases. That's a massive opportunity cost, actually.

I'm fine with armored casters, but they are very far from strong. AC is not really interesting on a caster as you are rarely targeted by AC-based attacks and for your third action there are way cheaper choices with similar efficiency (Intimidate).

[Captain Morgan]

While splitting the party is generally a bad idea, there's a lot you can gain from scouting in PF2. Prebuffing is still great, be it for spells like Haste, potions and elixirs, or actions like Hunt Prey and Overdrive. Plus there's the ol' Devise a Strategy and wait for a 20 trick. And reporting back to your party after observing a creature creates opportunity for all of you to roll knowledge checks to inform your stategy. That can be up to four free actions per character with a relevant skill before you even factor in the prep actions, like busting out the silversheen. I think it is well worth it *if* you have an exit button in case you're spotted. Which is why I like monks as scouts, or rangers in environments with tracking and difficult terrain.

That said... Dexterity investment isn't the safest way to scout. Spells like Prying Eye, Terrain Stalker Eidolons, and even familiars (at some tables) are usually safer.

Stealth is pretty good for combat though. It if often higher than perception for initiative, and significantly so if you have cover. It lets you often start fights unobserved (and virtually always start them hidden) so you can get flatfooted off your first strike. (Melee attacks need feats for that though.) You can also use it to make them flatfooted later or hide when badly injured.

Vodalian wrote:

and sneaking with your whole group is one of the mathematically most impossible things to achieve, since it requires your entire party to succeed at avoiding detection, so 4 consecutive rolls, for EACH enemy. For a room with 4 monsters that's 16 rolls you need to succeed in for one round of avoiding detection. And if you fail at ANY of the rolls, you are effectively all busted and start the combat in a bad position.

Quiet Allies.

[roquepo]

Ngl, if I were to give one stat the "God stat status", I think that would be WIS, not DEX.

As for the question at hand, I think Precision Ranger is the only one that can opt for Finesse weapons as their main option. They can make use of the thrown trait as ranged backup pretty well. For the others that can actually make the choice, it is either DEX and Ranged or STR and melee.

I don't really like DEX monks that much. Starting with 18 STR/14 DEX just puts you 1 AC behind of most other martials (no champion or heavy armor basically) for 4 levels out of 20 and above them for the last 6. 100% on par or above if you start with 16 DEX. Monk already deals low damage, every point of STR or on hit damage counts.

[Gortle]

roquepo wrote:

Ngl, if I were to give one stat the "God stat status", I think that would be WIS, not DEX.

It is poretty good. When the player work out they don't have to use Wisdom for initiative it opens it up a lot more.

roquepo wrote:

As for the question at hand, I think Precision Ranger is the only one that can opt for Finesse weapons as their main option. They can make use of the thrown trait as ranged backup pretty well. For the others that can actually make the choice, it is either DEX and Ranged or STR and melee.

I don't really like DEX monks that much. Starting with 18 STR/14 DEX just puts you 1 AC behind of most other martials (no champion or heavy armor basically) for 4 levels out of 20 and above them for the last 6. 100% on par or above if you start with 16 DEX. Monk already deals low damage, every point of STR or on hit damage counts.

I happy with Finese for a switch hitter. What I miss most is the loss of Athletics as an offensive skill.

[roquepo]

Gortle wrote:

roquepo wrote:

Ngl, if I were to give one stat the "God stat status", I think that would be WIS, not DEX.

It is poretty good. When the player work out they don't have to use Wisdom for initiative it opens it up a lot more.

Even when leaving initiative out of the question it is pretty bonkers as a stat. Will, Perception and skills like Medicine or Religion goes a long way.

[Unicore]

Stealth for initiative is great. I use it a lot with many characters. But APs really love throwing encounters at the party that start from social situations, or where you might feel bad jumping out and attacking without talking first. You can use stealth for initiative a lot, but it can’t really replace perception as an always reliable option. Will saves really hurt to fail as well. My characters can’t succeed at fort saves to save their lives, no matter how many resources I throw at increasing those odds, but will saves and fort saves tend to be the “fail one and everything becomes a lot harder” saves.

[egindar]

I think Dex boosting more skills as an incentive is akin to "selling hands." If you WANT those skills, it's essential, but you get your skill increases regardless of whether you pick Dex skills. So if you don't pick Dex skills, you're taking some other set of skills in return (selling the hand the first time), and then on top of that you're getting the increased damage (selling it the second time). It usually feels pretty easy for me to just not pick Dex skills because there are other skills like Athletics or Intimidation that I feel are about as useful to me.

[Captain Morgan]

egindar wrote:

I think Dex boosting more skills as an incentive is akin to "selling hands." If you WANT those skills, it's essential, but you get your skill increases regardless of whether you pick Dex skills. So if you don't pick Dex skills, you're taking some other set of skills in return (selling the hand the first time), and then on top of that you're getting the increased damage (selling it the second time). It usually feels pretty easy for me to just not pick Dex skills because there are other skills like Athletics or Intimidation that I feel are about as useful to me.

While true, a party without good stealth or thievery is going to have a harder time with certain challenges, in much the same way that a party without good charisma skills would. So while individual builds may be able to dump Dex, it feels hard for an entire party to do so.

[egindar]

That's true. You usually want one of the classes that's forced into Dex primary to be in your party as well.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

I think the issue I see over and over again is that people want dex martials but don't care about stealth, thievery or ranged.

They want to be a dex sword wielder and go fight in melee. Which is fine but you are going to be a lot worse than a str martial at it.

Even if you don't want to use them, all those benefits are built into dex, and it is budgeted for it. If you want to be a melee martial, str is there for you.

I do agree that str martials are a bit too good before you get striking runes, ranged characters suffer there too.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think a lot of people miss the "very low strength swordsperson" who did a ton of damage from PF1. I personally think it's good that if you're going to hang out in stabbing range you're going to want some strength. There were a lot of 10 Str swashbucklers in PF1, and I like that Swashes are rewarded for moderate strength investment.

Personally, I wish "Dex-to-Damage" on thief rogues wasn't a thing, but I can live with it.

[Squiggit]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think a lot of people miss the "very low strength swordsperson" who did a ton of damage from PF1. I personally think it's good that if you're going to hang out in stabbing range you're going to want some strength. There were a lot of 10 Str swashbucklers in PF1, and I like that Swashes are rewarded for moderate strength investment.

Personally, I wish "Dex-to-Damage" on thief rogues wasn't a thing, but I can live with it.

Part of my problem with this dynamic is the way it relates to level, though.

A low level Dex-based character absolutely wants that Strength investment, 14 strength when you're swinging a shortsword is an absolutely massive increase in your relative damage.

But at higher levels, if you aren't keeping up with that investment (which means the opportunity cost of more skill increases) the bonus becomes pretty pathetic and even if you do keep up, the growth is very small, to the point where it might become actively detrimental to pick that tiny increase in damage over something else. If you were building that same swashbuckler for a Night of the Gray Death campaign (which starts at 16), that 10 strength build actually becomes a lot more appealing.

For classes that don't have high static damage boosts, a level 1 finesse character can do less than half the damage of their strength based counterpart, while that gap narrows dramatically the higher your level.

It's the way the math changes so much as you level up that seems the most problematic to me.

[Temperans]

The reason you see a lot more switch hitters using Dex is that Dex by its very nature is the most versatile stat in the game. The fact you can use a Dex melee weapon as well as a Ranged weapon means you have a lot more opportunities to deal damage, while being safer about it.

Con does 2 super important things and nobody dumps it except for a specific build.
Wis does a handful of important things and nobody dumps it excpet for specific builds.
Int is ignored by everyone that doesn't care about knowledge checks, and is not an Int caster.
Cha is ignored by everyone that doesn't care about social checks, and is not a Cha caster.
Str is only useful for melee builds, who can then afford dumping Dex to use heavy armor.

Dex is basically the stat that everyone build up with the exception of Str builds that use heavy armor to deal with the decreased AC and Reflex save.

[aobst128]

On the topic of switch hitters, I do find it funny that the switch hitting support that we do have, (mostly gunslingers) is mostly about making point-blank ranged attacks. Which kind of defeats the purpose of switch hitting. Even if those abilities are quite good.

[Unicore]

Squiggit wrote:

It's the way the math changes so much as you level up that seems the most problematic to me.

Doesn’t that happen pretty jerky jerky with PF2 across a lot of things?

If you are playing the slithering, you don’t really want any attributes at 19 at level 5, and you get to really focus on the cosmic shift that happens with casters between levels 6 and 7.

If you aren’t playing to 11 or past it, there are a ton of character concepts that work out fine because trained armor proficiency is all anyone will have.

[Martialmasters]

If you think about it. Starting with 14-16 Dex is pretty common for majority of classes.

So it's not like it ever gets dumped aside from heavy armor players who can't hit the broad side of a barn with a bow