Wolf Style - What it should and should not affect

[Taz'Raul]

Hello,

I recently came into a bit of rules conflict with my DM about what are legal/valid targets to be affected by Wolf Style's movement speed reduction ability.

First of all, we all agreed that if a target is immune to trip, they're immune to the free trip attempt wolf style gets by reducing enemy's speed to 0. No contest.

For quick reference: Wolf Style reads verbatim as-
"While using this style, whenever you deal at least 10 points of damage to a foe with an attack of opportunity, that foe’s base speed decreases by 5 feet until the end of its next turn. For every 10 points of damage your attack deals beyond 10, the foe’s base speed decreases by an additional 5 feet."

To me this is an untyped penalty that is eligible to be put on ANY target that does not have baked in wording about being immune to movement impairment, such as an incorporeal being or those with constant Freedom of Movement and the like. (Though we did discuss if that is implying when affected by non-incorporeal means and a ghost touched source would overcome this, but seemed a stretch. Could a ghost touch whip reposition a ghost, could a ghost touch armor set allow you to grapple ghosts, could a ghost touched net ensnare a ghost, etc)

My DM however is saying that the movement penalty is -essentially- the same as a trip, and things that are immune to trip or 'don't make sense' that your weapon could slow them down, should be immune to wolf style.

He quoted things like slimes or energy based elementals where 'how could you exert force, trip up, inflict pain, make them flinch etc' enough to slow them down. And since Wolf Style is so general on it's description, it isn't exactly saying how the slow happens. Other than 10dmg=5ft.

DM is pretty rules based mindset so can anybody help me understand what is explicitly RAW on how this ability works?

Also, is base speed always ground movement? For example, does wolf style work on fish, or flying creatures? Or does it always burn ground speed? And if it only burns ground speed, what happens when you use wolf style on a target that already has 0 ground speed? Are they auto tripped? (If a fish or a bird can even BE tripped mid-air or in water)

[Derklord]

RAW is that everything is effected unless explicitly stated otherwise. In Pathfinder, htere is no such thing as "-essentially- the same as". Unless an ability says it is treated as tripping, or similar language, it doesn't.

The GM's ruling seems to be 100% based off on (pseudo-)realism, with no regards to the RAW.

[Diego Rossi]

RAW everything is affected unless it has an explicit immunity.

As with several of the styles' abilities, there is a disconnect between the descriptive text and the RAW mechanic.

[Derklord]

Well, in this case, the flavor text describes something that the game is deliberately not able to handle: Facing.

One critical error that I think the GM here is making is ignoring that just because we don't know how one would reduce an ooze's movement speed, it doesn't mean it can't be done. The game rules and Bestiary entries aren't encyclopedias, they do not contain all information that exists in-universe.

Taz'Raul wrote:

Also, is base speed always ground movement?

Yes. The way the game uses them, "Base Speed" and "Base Land Speed" are interchangable terms that describe ground speed before encumberance. Note that despite saying "base", it's with all bonuses, like from Haste or Barbarian's Fast Movement.

Note that RAW the feat reduces speed before encumberance, which means it can happen that for someone wearing armor or carrying more than a light load, the speed reduction in practise is less than what you reduce with the feat. For example, a creature with 30ft base speed wearing armor, a land speed of 20, would not actually be slowed down at all by a mere 5ft reduction from the feat, because a base speed of 25 also results in a land speed of 20.

[Temperans]

To follow up on what the others have said about needing explicit immunity.

The only way something may have an implicit immunity is if its something that the game does not take into account normally. This type of stuff usually happens with regular items where you can assume they have their IRL properties or with incredibly niche situations (like trying to use a fire in a vacuum).

In this case wolf style in itself is not a trip even if it may give you a free trip attempt. It also doesn't say that things immune to trip are also immune to this speed reduction. If you need a way to visualize it think more of it like breaking bones and muscle or using pressure poits. The important part of the feat is that it has two parts: Part 1, you slow down the enemy; Part 2, you can try to trip an enemy whose effective base speed became 0 or less.

[Temperans]

Derklord wrote:

Note that despite saying "base", it's with all bonuses, like from Haste or Barbarian's Fast Movement.

Technically its only the modifiers that affect your "base speed" before encumberance. Haste and Monk Fast movement don't apply since they modify your speed after encumberance.

EDIT: I deleted the previous version of this post because it didn't fit what I wanted to say. Also, half asleep and forgot I could just edit it.

[Derklord]

Temperans wrote:

Technically its only the modifiers that affect your "base speed" before encumberance. Haste and Monk Fast movement don't apply since they modify your speed after encumberance.

Well, Monk's Fast Movement stops working when encumbered, so that one is utterly irrelevant, and Haste does work on the base speed: Acrobatics says "Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet." CRB pg. 88 and Haste says "This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed." CRB pg. 294 Since the line in Haste references rules for "base land speed", it must affect that.

If you want to correct people, get your facts straight first.

Indeed, I'm pretty sure all speed bonuses are supposed to apply pre-encumberance, as evident by that Barbarian and Bloodrager had their Fast Movement ability errata's to say "base speed" instead of "land speed", and by the strong prevalence of abilities saying base speed or base land speed, as well as abilities that either say "Apply this bonus before modifying speed because of any load carried or armor worn" (like Charger Cavalier's Courser ability) or "gaining the appropriate bonus on Acrobatics checks to jump"/"it affects your jumping distance as normal for increased speed" (Black Powder Vaulter Gunslinger's Daring Vault/Persistence Inquisition's Relentless Footing), which as per the acrobatic rules must affect base speed.