Proficiency aside, is there anything preventing a humanoid eidolon from wearing armor?
Yeah, the lack of any published Armor with the Eidolon Trait, the same thing that prevents them from wearing any other non-specialized equipment.
Come again?
It was my understanding that such restrictions only applied to magical gear. If the armor has no runes, I don't believe it falls under that category. Did I miss something more in the rules?
They don't have armor proficiency other than unarmored so there's not much point to it. You could probably put on a set of armor on them assuming they have a humanoid form but it wouldn't go with them when they un manifest.
I was thinking it might be good for a disguise, or at the very low levels before the proficiency bonus can outstrip the item bonus from the armor.
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As part of a disguise kit, I could allow that.
Also in addition to the proficiency problems, once the armor has runes on it it becomes magical. Doing an end-run around that by using alternate rules like Automatic Bonus Progression or High Quality items is a hard 'no' from me.
And there is the whole balance thing that the Eidolon's math is probably set up to not be using armor item bonuses.
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I think you could just describe "your anger phantom eidolon looks like it's wearing samurai armor" and everybody would see your red, glowing ghost friend as wearing samurai armor. Just like you could describe its attacks as "with a fiery katana" but they're still mechanically unarmed attacks in terms of proficiency and damage/traits.
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Yeah, the lack of any published Armor with the Eidolon Trait, the same thing that prevents them from wearing any other non-specialized equipment.Come again?
It was my understanding that such restrictions only applied to magical gear. If the armor has no runes, I don't believe it falls under that category. Did I miss something more in the rules?
Eidolon
Source Secrets of Magic pg. 253"An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)"
The trait makes no mention of the item being a magic item. The Gear and Your Eidolon does say magic items, but that doesn't contradict the trait as magic items are items and saying magic items are excluded in itself says nothing about normal items.
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*sigh* Two different blacklists are not equivalent. The rules are still contradictory in those two locations.
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I mean, no idea if it's intentional, but disagree. "You can't use items that don't have the eidolon trait" and "you can only use magical items with the eidolon trait" aren't inherently contradicatory.
It sounds implausibly bad and unintended, but PF2 is full of rules that seem implausibly bad and clearly problematic, despite being designed that way on purpose.
So it's hard to really say what the intent is one way or the other. At the very least it's worth pointing out to someone, because it might come up at their table.
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Since you can just manifest and unmanifest your eidolon whenever, I'm not sure what value there is in disguising them to begin with.
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Saying "No dogs allowed" is different than saying "No Labrador Retrievers allowed".
And if the firewall rules call for blocking all IPv4 addresses in the range 65.22.x.x and I instead block all IPv4 addresses in the range 65.x.x.x, the client is not going to be very happy. Because those are not equivalent.
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I think it's safe to say that everyone here understands what the rules technically say. It's just that not everyone agrees that, that is what they were INTENDED to say.
I for one suspect that eidolons were not generally intended to be barred from mundane gear. The alternative creates a whole host of problems from not being able to fully utilize numerous skill feats to humanoid eidolons suddenly being unable to pick up items, open doors, climb ladders, light or carry lanterns, or whatever else.
I think it's safe to say that everyone here understands what the rules technically say. It's just that not everyone agrees that, that is what they were INTENDED to say.
I for one suspect that eidolons were not generally intended to be barred from mundane gear. The alternative creates a whole host of problems from not being able to fully utilize numerous skill feats to humanoid eidolons suddenly being unable to pick up items, open doors, climb ladders, light or carry lanterns, or whatever else.
*shrug* How long were battleforms not allowed to escape because it was an attack action and battleforms could only use attacks given by the form?
As to mundane gear, you don't carry/wield things like doors or ladders [already placed] so they seem safe IMO. As such, I wouldn't count them as gear at all: you're using them as much as you are using the ground/stairs to walk on.
It sounds implausibly bad and unintended, but PF2 is full of rules that seem implausibly bad and clearly problematic, despite being designed that way on purpose.
So it's hard to really say what the intent is one way or the other. At the very least it's worth pointing out to someone, because it might come up at their table.
Yep on both points.
For distraction options the Unfetter Eidolon + Summoner's Visage usually are great options.
I think it's safe to say that everyone here understands what the rules technically say. It's just that not everyone agrees that, that is what they were INTENDED to say.
I for one suspect that eidolons were not generally intended to be barred from mundane gear. The alternative creates a whole host of problems from not being able to fully utilize numerous skill feats to humanoid eidolons suddenly being unable to pick up items, open doors, climb ladders, light or carry lanterns, or whatever else.
I don't disagree completely from you. I also think that prevent the usage of skill tools and kit isn't intended by designer but I don't think that wear an armor or carry thing is really intended once that this increases the summoner bulk limits indirectly.
As GM I allow eidolons to carry and use skill required equipments only and to interact and momentarily to carry things in an encounter. But I don't allow anything that benefits them more than this or they to be used as drudge to prevent summoner overload (I would require that all eidolon carried equipment to be counted as carried by summoner and when unmanifested they all falls in the ground to prevent an exploit usage).
I would follow such homebrew at last until some errata clarifying better eidolon non-magical itens interaction works.
So IMO armor for disguise option could easily count as disguise kit (with all effects allowed for skill checks) and I allow it but I don't allow more usage than this. For flavor question you always can make you eidolon appearance as you like so no need of additional rules.
I don't think that wear an armor or carry thing is really intended once that this increases the summoner bulk limits indirectly.
If the eidolon is not left with any stats of its own, then do they really exist?
That stance strikes me as a little extreme, and not at all supported. Eidolons are separate creatures, and thus should carry their own weight. Nothing I'm aware of in the rules indicates otherwise, not even obliquely.
I would require that all eidolon carried equipment to be counted as carried by summoner and when unmanifested they all falls in the ground to prevent an exploit usage.
Closing one exploit often opens another. Though you prevent eidolons from hiding away items of potentially great value in their "otherspace" or from arriving ready for anything like a Swiss army knife and Christmas tree, you also open up kamikaze strike tactics and the like.
In the end, I think you'll find that most people weren't trying to abuse the game at all, and instead were just trying to have fun.
I hope you're communicating with your players prior to implementing house rules or when there's a perceived exploit problem occurring.
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Since you can just manifest and unmanifest your eidolon whenever, I'm not sure what value there is in disguising them to begin with.
It also wouldn't be particularly effective:
Your magical connection with your eidolon takes the form of a sigil on each of your bodies. As long as your eidolon is manifested, the sigil glows with light and can't be covered or disguised via any means; it will shine through clothing, appear over cloaks, and remain unaffected by obfuscating magic. This, combined with the way that the two of you clearly act in tandem, makes it readily apparent to an intelligent observer that the two of you are connected in some way, even if the person has never encountered a summoner before.
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If the eidolon is not left with any stats of its own, then do they really exist?
Ask the familiar. They don't get stats but exists in the game.
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If the eidolon is not left with any stats of its own, then do they really exist?Ask the familiar. They don't get stats but exists in the game.
And only get defined actions during combat when they aren't able to do anything useful.
And only get defined actions during combat when they aren't able to do anything useful.If the eidolon is not left with any stats of its own, then do they really exist?Ask the familiar. They don't get stats but exists in the game.
And? The question was if they need their own stats: the game already has creatures in game that don't so it's answered. Eidolon already have a leg up on familiars by having attacks. That and they can actually carry tools if they take the right ability.
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Yes this means that eidolons cannot use kits, open doors, or do anything else with items. You have a problem with it? Go ask Paizo who wrote the rules to fix companions and familiars who also have the same issue.
That is the whole point. It is Too Bad To Be True for most players of the game. Eidolons are supposed to be able to use skills and do basic things with mundane items.
But Paizo won't fix it. Care to wait for 3 lots of errata? That how long it took for wildshaped Gorillas to be able to Escape or Shove. Despite the fact that multiple people were calling it out from the very start.
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It does feel like "The Devotion Phantom has the medicine skill, but is unable to use it if you don't believe it can hold healer's tools" is a thing that does deserve errata.
But generally Paizo's position on some of these issues is to let tables figure it out on their own, like there's been questions about what "Unconventional Weaponry" does and doesn't allow since the game released and they've said nothing.
Honestly, I think eidolons can use at least mundane gear. Note how 'magic' is specified in the rule.
Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait.
So it couldn't use a magic ring (unless it was an eidolon ring), but it could use mundane items. It could use a disguise kit to touch up your rogue's makeup, a writing kit to be your loyal scribe, or a greatsword to be terrible at combat since it's not proficient in martial weapons.
Now, while it can use all that stuff, it has to get them from somewhere. What's the normal rule on eidolons holding Things when they demanifest? I'm assuming 'it all crashes to the ground' to avoid any possible issues of, say, using your eighteen-strength eidolon to carry off valuables by manifesting, grabbing nine bulk of goodies, and demanifesting while the summoner walks out whistling innocently.
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Yeah, barring mundane gear opens up a lot more problems than it solves.
For example, you couldn't attach a cart or wagon to a beast eidolon, have it climb a ladder, or hold one in manacles when the summoner is unable to dismiss it for some reason.
The nonfunctional skill tools are really only the tip of the iceberg.
That's too bad to be true in my opinion, and so I choose to believe that the seemingly contradictory text is an error.
I feel like some part of it is that "what is true about your Eidolon" is supposed to something that you figure out at the table. Like "of course my Eidolon can't use a fork, it is a dog" and "of course my Eidolon can use a fork, it is a respected member of a Fae court, it has table manners you can't even fathom."
But a lot of these decisions are on an Eidolon to Eidolon basis, and it's absolutely not worth Paizo's time to try to spell out explicitly what things a Tree Eidolon can't do that an Angel Eidolon could.
I'm mostly inclined to see "the Eidolon can't use items" as license for the GM to shut down any shenanigans that someone comes with for their Eidolon to do. Like there's a difference between "the eidolon pours a healing potion down an unconscious PC's throat" and "the eidolon is constantly used as an action economy fixer for whatever needs."
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I feel like some part of it is that "what is true about your Eidolon" is supposed to something that you figure out at the table. Like "of course my Eidolon can't use a fork, it is a dog" and "of course my Eidolon can use a fork, it is a respected member of a Fae court, it has table manners you can't even fathom."
But a lot of these decisions are on an Eidolon to Eidolon basis, and it's absolutely not worth Paizo's time to try to spell out explicitly what things a Tree Eidolon can't do that an Angel Eidolon could.
And honestly, that would be a GREAT clarification if stated by Paizo. I would wholly support such an official stance over the unknowns we have now (not that Paizo necessarily needs my humble support).